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| Spell Dc | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 26 2016, 08:05 PM (156 Views) | |
| Pellease | Aug 26 2016, 08:05 PM Post #1 |
Greybeard
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I hear constantly that high LA races are bad for casters and with all the Mystic Theurge builds out there I am wondering at what point a caster's DCs are useless? I'm assuming no one is drowning or dominating the higher bosses, but I am wondering if spells become useless even against the lousier mobs if their caster is too leveled down? For instance does a 16-17 Caster level character stand a chance of having one of their spells affect any of the common run of the mill end game hoards? I am guessing Warlock have it particularly hard as they don't have access to practices spell caster? |
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| Strawberry Jam | Aug 26 2016, 08:38 PM Post #2 |
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The saves with a few very rare exceptions tend on the higher side. In mid level areas you will already notice this. In high level areas saves will be around 30 and higher which makes most spells useless. Level adjusted races lose levels, they lose feats, and epic DC's, they lose effective caster levels. Spell resistance is an issue too but not as much if you have the spell penetration feats. |
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I like Ravenloft & dual wield pistols & physician base class & Psionics & Aberrations & character customization & Book of Exalted Deeds Sorcery: Magi Kingdom of Magic Spirit Shaman: Mushishi Psionics: Fullmetal Alchemist | |
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| Pellease | Aug 26 2016, 08:40 PM Post #3 |
Greybeard
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KK thanks! |
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| Mick64 | Aug 26 2016, 08:49 PM Post #4 |
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Most mobs have one save that's relatively lower then the others. Which means if you find the right spell, you -can- use DC spells if you're spell-casting focused. But you need to have the right spell. And you do need more then 16-17 CL. As for ELC races, remember that +2 to your casting attribute compensates for 3 levels of Epic DC. Good rule of thumb. |
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Scripter. Login: Electrohydra I play: Anything. Blue Slaad. Lots of things too. Countless, ever-changing alts. | |
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| Whitefly | Aug 26 2016, 10:49 PM Post #5 |
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;)
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If you're a warlock and your DCs are under 35, you're useless. If you're a wizard/sorc/etc and your DCs are under 40, you're useless. Psions lie somewhere between the two. DCs are all or nothing - you can't go half measures and warlocks only get away with 35 because they can spam-a-dee spam like crazy until they get a low roll. You can't really afford to be failing your rolls with the other casters, because you don't have enough spells per day to waste. That said, succubus can do DCs well because of their +9 charisma, but it really has to be around +9 to compete with the 1 and 0 ECL races. I think a succubus actually does beat off the competition, netting an extra DC with the ideal build. |
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Moxie Anafara Angas, aka Ixsaea; delightful Xaositectiefling Kismet Saljahasa; "really friendly" air elemental sort Ravvi Beaconberry; adorable hin adventuress | |
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| Strawberry Jam | Aug 27 2016, 12:16 AM Post #6 |
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Psions don't get DC that high, they get no epic DC, no feats, no epic feats on pure levels. In pen and paper their "spell focus" feats affect all disciplines due to limits, so it's a bad trade now if they don't. Augmenting cuts off which means can't raise DC on an augment too high. Their epic spells have a low DC as well. The best powers are altered to have no DC or created with an effect even if they save so you don't just manifest duds. Similarly I think in most servers ppl used vitriolic blast for warlock because it ignores spell resistance and has no save. |
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I like Ravenloft & dual wield pistols & physician base class & Psionics & Aberrations & character customization & Book of Exalted Deeds Sorcery: Magi Kingdom of Magic Spirit Shaman: Mushishi Psionics: Fullmetal Alchemist | |
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| Pellease | Aug 27 2016, 12:37 AM Post #7 |
Greybeard
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This is why I always play a buff Mage if Im gonna Mage anything. |
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| Tsidkenu | Aug 27 2016, 12:43 AM Post #8 |
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Slightly Less Inactive
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There is much fruit being borne in this thread. All mobs have a weak save somewhere. Wizards have the advantage of finding what that is in a given area and then modding your spellbook to exploit that. In the Abyss & Astral planes, for example, the low save is Will. So I load up on Confusion, Solipsism, Planar Binding and Dominate Monster to make them destroy themselves or provide easy pickings for summons. In Limbo, the low(er) save is generally Fort. So nuke away with Wail of the Banshee, Stinking Cloud, Evard's Black Tentacles and Cloudkill. Find an area where the mobs have low reflex? Grease, Web and Firebrand will be your friends there. Wizard PvE on this server is balanced away from blasters (mobs just have too much HP, esp. if you're running around on GC difficulty all the time) and towards tactical support of your allies. It's far more efficient to allocate most of your spell slots into buffs, and then support your party by using Damage over Time or Status/Effect over Time spells like most of those listed above. Even the relatively disused Colour Spray spell can offer 1d4+1 crucial rounds of stun against much stronger, but low will save, foes! Just make sure your allies are protected from your alignment-affecting mind spells too! |
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Not-so-inactive Characters Cherry Sapphire Xhallibysskg Timezone: Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time, GMT/UTC +10 | |
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| Whitefly | Aug 27 2016, 12:56 AM Post #9 |
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;)
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I thought psions did get epic DC increases at 23, 26 and 29, as well as equivalent to spell focus? They don't get that? Geez forget what I said about them being between warlocks and wizards then XD Poor Psions. |
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Moxie Anafara Angas, aka Ixsaea; delightful Xaositectiefling Kismet Saljahasa; "really friendly" air elemental sort Ravvi Beaconberry; adorable hin adventuress | |
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| Tsidkenu | Aug 27 2016, 01:01 AM Post #10 |
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Slightly Less Inactive
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Psions are getting a rework according to the chant, to add their class bonus feats, epic bonus feats and epic DC bonuses. Might take a while to get released but will be sooooo worth it when it is! |
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Not-so-inactive Characters Cherry Sapphire Xhallibysskg Timezone: Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time, GMT/UTC +10 | |
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| Strawberry Jam | Aug 27 2016, 01:23 AM Post #11 |
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Mind you not all areas follow a unanimous pattern for low save, different creatures have different saves. I think in the grand abyss vrocks have like 30-35 will or something. Some also don't have any saves that are very very low. Spotters with high saves can also be super devastating I find. For Psion the issue with "spell focus" is they get "discipline focus" but there's no psion class with more available powers than Psion, and the restrictions operate differently. So essentially it's a moot point because a higher DC in most disciplines isn't worth it in the same way as a single spell school focus is. The srd has the feat which increases all powers by +1 DC. But yes, it's a work in progress but the current situation doesn't benefit them except a small handful of powers. If you really get into playing a Psion you also discover a lot of more esoteric issues, like augmenting/metapsionics doesn't work properly on all powers lol You can adapt around it but it does limit effective choices. |
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I like Ravenloft & dual wield pistols & physician base class & Psionics & Aberrations & character customization & Book of Exalted Deeds Sorcery: Magi Kingdom of Magic Spirit Shaman: Mushishi Psionics: Fullmetal Alchemist | |
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| Ceremorph | Aug 27 2016, 03:49 AM Post #12 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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A lot of this depends upon the makeup of the enemies you're facing. What I can say is that the saving throws of almost every creature you're going to face are automatically calculated based upon their classes. So for instance, the Babau in the Abyss have only outsider levels. This actually makes them have exceptionally good saving throws, because the Outsider class considers all three to be "high" saves. The second-tier Babau (Cutter version) has saving throws (F/R/W order from here out) of 17/15/15 as a 20th-level Outsider. Now take Cambions: they are mixed, having 10 levels of outsider but 10 levels of assassin on the third-tier (Gatecrasher) version. The same total level as the Cutter Babau... but their saves are 13/20/8, meaning they're very susceptable to something that requires a high will save. As a third example, I'll throw out an opponent that I consider one of the most frightening: the Horned Priests in the Endless Maze. Their cleric spells make them dangerous, being able to strengthen themselves AND their more physically imposing allies. Monstrous 4/Cleric 13/Warpriest 5 gives them 22 total levels at Gatecrasher.. but their saves are 19/9/8. So they're natural targets for things that will require reflex saves. But now we'll wrap up in a different direction, and a rather terrifying one: The Broken Spirits from the Shivering Prison. These naughty ladies are Outsider 5/Bard 20/Eldritch Knight 2. That's 27 levels of danger right there... but their saves? 16/22/19. Meaning you're going to have a better chance of making them fail a fortitude save than the considerably weaker Horned Priests. So the challenge comes in understanding what creatures are the most dangerous to you, and not counting on your spells to take care of everything (with the Broken Spirit as an example), if there is a Broken Spirit, a kulubar torturer, and several Tortured Spirits in the mob you're facing, that "save vs. fortitude" effect is going to do quite well against the BS (16) and the Kelubar (17), but will probably be shrugged off by the TS (25). However, if you can get the two more dangerous enemies weakened or disposed of, the Tortured Spirits (Outsider 5/Fighter 15/Invisoblade 5/Blackguard 2) aren't nearly as worrisome. And now that I've written all this out, I'm actually thinking it might be a good idea to build specific weaknesses into specific enemies. Of course, I won't tell you all what they are, but still, it WOULD be a nice surprise to find out that the right spell or ability can make a daunting fight less dangerous. |
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