|
| ||||
Announcements
| Welcome to Sigil: City of Doors. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Legacy Characters And Server | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Mar 26 2017, 12:23 PM (1,029 Views) | |
| zielakxar | Mar 26 2017, 12:23 PM Post #1 |
|
Prime
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Hello - fairly new player here. Just wanted to say it's quite nice server you're having here. Interesting mechanics, well designed maps, rich world, friendly community - but there is a thing that bothers me. Yesterday I had a conversation with certain other player that explained some very disturbing things about your server and I wanted to ask how it actually really is. Lets start discussion about Legacy characters. The way it was explained to me those are old characters created before racial PrC-s existed. Such characters have very high stats - like way better than what new players can create using available PrC-s and are pretty much unkillable with 100+AB/AC. When I asked why such characters where not rebuilt to updated more balanced currently existing classes it was explained to me that there was an outcry on the forums and administration decided to let them be. Going further into discussion it was explained to me that old players are majority here and that is why they can force such decisions. By looking at the topic about OOC room I believe it looks quite true. Summarising - such practice seemed quite disgusting to me cause it negates everything I mentioned in first paragraph of this post and crosses like very basic thing that I would expect form any game server - witch is same rules to apply both for old and new players. I don't think I would even start playing here if I'd knew this. So how exactly it works? Is it something like secret to new players so they wouldn't quit right away? Would you say its true and new players that are concerned with things like that have nothing to do here? Are there more things like that ? Like overpowered items/feats/whatever not available to new players but not taken away from old characters? I understand it is rather sensitive topic so keep discussion on a high level. Post is to be treated as a simple honest question - not invitation to flame. |
![]() |
|
| edmaster44 | Mar 26 2017, 12:40 PM Post #2 |
![]()
|
Quite Frankly, from my own point of view, the new Prc's for some templates are just not that good. Case in point, Half-Fiends, Half-Celestials. My main is a Half-Fiend, a mere Rogue with Shadow Dancer nothing special and no 100 ac/ab that this player told me. That's sort of a little joke that we circulate about the old 100ac Nymph. It has always been proven and shown that a 0 Ecl race will always be a better choice. Some one did the math here, so i won't post it. For me, my personal view, it comes down to freedom and not forced to take a prc, waste a few levels and a class slot so i can get some sub par stats that wouldn't fit too well with my Main. Some Legacy Races were really over powered and down right broken. But the majority of people have remade them into the newer templates because they got more to gain, ala Vampire, undead or Fiends. Some of those races had really high ECL like 8. So they weren't at all very powerful, and in many cases where subpar. My two cents. Won't add anything else here. |
|
Helena Al'Iblis - Merchant, Mother, Wife and Sensate. Stormbringer - Princess from Melechesh, Scholar of the Planes, Sign of One, One of us! | |
![]() |
|
| Mr_Otyugh | Mar 26 2017, 12:42 PM Post #3 |
![]()
|
Whomever you talked with was exaggerating a lot, and deserves a slap for being a drama llama. And no, they don't have 100 ABs or ACs, if they unanimously only had that, then they'd have been deleted a long time ago, that seems one of the laziest attempts to turn public opinion I've seen. Also there has never been a public outcry about removing them, the races were grandfathered to remove any purpose of it.The older special races and newer ones are a tradeoff. The older ones were (in some cases) better at melee, but almost always worse in casting since they had in majority of cases much higher level adjustments that denied more epic feats, and general class progression. They had much higher ability adjustments that could give them an edge in some specific builds. And there were a few races which were plain silly and poorly designed. At the time there were a lot of discussion about underpowered and other balance related things in regards of Special Races, which sparked making a new version and leaving the old ones be. The new races are more well rounded, but still have their own issues, in some scenarios they are worse, in some they are better. Super ultra min/max builds will always be better than those that aren't, that was the case back then and that is the case currently, nothing really has changed in that regard. Template PrCs, such as vampires, were bugged, and currently fixed(?) and not intended at all to be able to be picked by quite a few things, so it wasn't legacy race specific (also technically it's template PrC). Racial PrCs are tied to their specific races which are different from the original ones as far as I know. |
|
Time Zones - Alignments - Name Generator NWN 2 Mechanics - PnP Mechanics - Dice Roller Character Builder - 2nd edition Monster Database - Monster Finder In-case of problems: Click Here | |
![]() |
|
| zielakxar | Mar 26 2017, 01:08 PM Post #4 |
|
Prime
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The way edmaster44 explains it:
Way I see it old players are offered "freedom of choice" to play char with better stats while new players are free to play sub-par classes only to have freedom to quit server when they get to know about this situation
|
![]() |
|
| Mr_Otyugh | Mar 26 2017, 01:11 PM Post #5 |
![]()
|
Grass is always greener on the other side. People whined about special races being subpar back then, they do it today too. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. |
|
Time Zones - Alignments - Name Generator NWN 2 Mechanics - PnP Mechanics - Dice Roller Character Builder - 2nd edition Monster Database - Monster Finder In-case of problems: Click Here | |
![]() |
|
| zielakxar | Mar 26 2017, 01:16 PM Post #6 |
|
Prime
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well either offer "Legacy" version of races to everyone or force old chars to rebuild to a new format - maybe after fixing their ECL to a more reasonable values? Am I the only one who sees a problem in current approach to this situation? |
![]() |
|
| Mr_Otyugh | Mar 26 2017, 01:23 PM Post #7 |
![]()
|
The ones that have been bugged in exploitative fashion, have been forced to rebuild. Those that function don't really matter much. Because if the problem is about people having things you don't... well that's going to be the reality regardless. So not much will change, other than possibly driving some people away for principle alone... you could argue about equality, but that falls flat since you could just make just as potent powerbuilds, if not more potent. |
|
Time Zones - Alignments - Name Generator NWN 2 Mechanics - PnP Mechanics - Dice Roller Character Builder - 2nd edition Monster Database - Monster Finder In-case of problems: Click Here | |
![]() |
|
| Theodoreick | Mar 26 2017, 01:27 PM Post #8 |
![]() ![]()
|
You are using a strawman argument. Ed said quite a different thing, that the legacy races, by not needing a prestige class, had more build freedom, since, it's a no brainer, they had an extra class slot. Also, since racial prestige classes are oriented toward certain builds and not others, it's again a no brainer that they restrict freedom of build to an extent. Last but not least who has a legacy race can only use it for the characters they already have, i.e. they cannot create any new characters of that legacy race. They can only delevel the character they already have and they cannot modify what they chose at level 1. Hard to call that freedom. |
| PnP, Pencil-and-paper: the term refers to the ancient tools that were available to early roleplaying humankind. The pencil was a long piece of wood that contained a soft, staining, carbon-based material called graphite encased inside. Early roleplaying humans would scrape the pencil across the surface of paper. Paper was the term used to describe an early form of random access memory, consisting of pressed tree pulp that was smooth and designed to easily absorb the scrapings of pencil graphite. | |
![]() |
|
| edmaster44 | Mar 26 2017, 01:28 PM Post #9 |
![]()
|
This too. Some people have been force to rebuild cause of some really disgusting exploits or bugs. This isn't a big issue to be honest and there are things in the world like have and have-nots. The Majority of the Prc's are freaking Amazing with maybe one i would like to see re visited and the bugs ironed out, then i will rebuild into the new Prc, unfortunately, it's a tad buggy at the moment and wouldn't make my Half-Fiend look too Half-Fiendish, cosmetic reasons is a factor here. I don't Pvp, nor do i grind much, this, after all is a Role Playing Server, and thus i act accordingly, if you're going to quit the server over this non-issue, i implore you to rethink it again, this is a great server with a cool lore and setting. |
|
Helena Al'Iblis - Merchant, Mother, Wife and Sensate. Stormbringer - Princess from Melechesh, Scholar of the Planes, Sign of One, One of us! | |
![]() |
|
| zethrenx99 | Mar 26 2017, 02:43 PM Post #10 |
Greybeard
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
All the races are being set to the 3 ECL standard for balance purposes. The OP has a point on freedom of choice. If it is a case of flavor over mechanics then we would have both options available for new players. new Races and PRC's are in general worse, actually i have yet to see one that was considered stronger than the previous and that is by design for this 3 ecl standard. more than just nymphs can hit the ridiculous in ac/ab on the older races, I in fact know of several very common legacy races that can easily hit over 80's ac 50+ ab 80+ average dmg. really the only difference now is that people can play these races and be sub-par casters (since all offensive magic outside of psions/warlocks is relatively weak with 0 ecl let alone 3). It boils down to a built up sense of entitlement and legacy favoritism. I think people should frankly suck it up and rebuild the legacy races when new ones become stable. . . I did =/ (definitely regret some of them but its only fair). |
![]() |
|
| edmaster44 | Mar 26 2017, 02:47 PM Post #11 |
![]()
|
Most Legacy race sucks :P. Genie? awesome race in paper, Rp rise too, but those 8, and 9 ECL? Hurts man. Half-Dragons and Old Khaasta? They were strong as heck, but...funny enough, not a lot of people played them cause they looked Ugly as heck, or what i dub, Fugly. |
|
Helena Al'Iblis - Merchant, Mother, Wife and Sensate. Stormbringer - Princess from Melechesh, Scholar of the Planes, Sign of One, One of us! | |
![]() |
|
| Lucadia | Mar 26 2017, 02:52 PM Post #12 |
![]()
|
Iv a feeling that if not having a legacy race for your power build needs is detering you from the rest of the features you said was attractive for the server, this is not the place for you. Who ever you was talking to was giving you a ride of tall tales of what stats you can get to. Certainly no 100 ab pcs running around without exploits. Im sorry you cant have old eryiness with +50 stats. Can always get a nymph though. Hurry before time runs out. |
| |
![]() |
|
| Theodoreick | Mar 26 2017, 02:59 PM Post #13 |
![]() ![]()
|
And don't forget the awesome Marid or Iron Golem. |
| PnP, Pencil-and-paper: the term refers to the ancient tools that were available to early roleplaying humankind. The pencil was a long piece of wood that contained a soft, staining, carbon-based material called graphite encased inside. Early roleplaying humans would scrape the pencil across the surface of paper. Paper was the term used to describe an early form of random access memory, consisting of pressed tree pulp that was smooth and designed to easily absorb the scrapings of pencil graphite. | |
![]() |
|
| zethrenx99 | Mar 26 2017, 03:01 PM Post #14 |
Greybeard
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Those races where ugly, they where changed now people play them. I don't see how that is against my point? xD
Its common sense, if you are a new player you want your character to be able to strive (and rightfully so) for the same equivalencies of older legacy players. Its elitism to think that because a new player was not around for x or y they do not deserve it, or that you do deserve to keep it and they should suck it up or leave. That's how you lose players. And it can even have very little to do with physical strength of a character. A fiend with 50 chr (something you cannot get as a new player) has an innate RP advantage over a new fiend with say 35 in RP based skills. And some races where changed and kept the same ecl, Winterwolves could hit 45 str now they cap at about 30 both ecl 3 and the new one requires 5 levels of a class to gain immunity to cold. Genies. . . I mean, personally i don't know many who play the new or old ones. There is only one character that comes to mind and he used the legacy race. I kinda liked the old half dragon even if the model didn't match It ways fairly unique. Khaas super borked, and the only Khaas I know rcred to the new race. So whats the problem again?
|
![]() |
|
| Darkrob | Mar 26 2017, 03:16 PM Post #15 |
![]() ![]()
|
And my opinion, strictly as a player, is that it's elitism for newer players to come in and expect the established community to abandon long decided things to suit them. There are always two camps and always will be. If we changed something for every new player that demanded it, we'd be in a constant flux of 'do you know what we're doing? Nope... you? Nada... maybe he does... doubt it... we just gained a new player. Time to start all over again." Yeah I'm being heavily sarcastic but what I see is someone who loves the mod, loves the setting, RP everything except he can't have some of the 'questionable' goodies people who've played here for years have so they gotta abandon them or he'll split. Again, as a player, that is akin to extortion. No change... no new player. Sorry but that doesn't fly. If you're here for the RP and the fun... welcome. If you find you can't have those without the Legacy races, well... sorry. And I have to say again (as people might think I'm voicing this as staff opinion.. and it's not. I'm posting this as a player. |
|
Charles Goodman - owner of The Consortium and Chairman of the Syndicate - Indep and Merkhant Daniela Nokomis- "The Enclave" - Vampiress, The woman in White, Soul Stealer, Merchant Garen Seph - Fraternity of Order B3 "You may think you have us surrounded, but in reality you have simply put us in a target rich environment." | |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · General Discussion · Next Topic » |





![]](http://b2.ifrm.com/10754/109/0/f7002139/pipend.png)




And no, they don't have 100 ABs or ACs, if they unanimously only had that, then they'd have been deleted a long time ago, that seems one of the laziest attempts to turn public opinion I've seen. Also there has never been a public outcry about removing them, the races were grandfathered to remove any purpose of it.






12:39 AM Jul 11