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Topic Started: Apr 15 2017, 10:28 PM (3,989 Views)
Er_Nano_Infame
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EL NANO!!
Tester
while i didnt follow much the discord issue, i hadnt found too many complications with the new ooc room rule after a while (((assuming it's still in effect ofc)). if the issue was having a lighter log in in the server then let simply that happen in a small separate room with barely any feature, like on the other server
Maewind:''That's still plant-hating! That makes you a plant racist!''

Lucelle Vand'hovar: ''Miss Maewind, i assure you, the plants started this conflict.''

Nienna: ''Razorvine is hardly a plant, in her defense.''

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Er_Nano_Infame
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EL NANO!!
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Ariella,Apr 21 2017
02:33 PM
but a death on another plane entirely meaningless.


define ''meaningless'' better in this istance please?
Maewind:''That's still plant-hating! That makes you a plant racist!''

Lucelle Vand'hovar: ''Miss Maewind, i assure you, the plants started this conflict.''

Nienna: ''Razorvine is hardly a plant, in her defense.''

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Mander
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Elder Lich
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
From a setting standpoint even outsiders and the like don't want to get banished/whatever because they would lose all the equipment they were carrying. Imagine how much less cocksure your PC would be if all those purples were going to be lost if you got kicked back to fae land/hell/abyss/etc.
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All the Athar want is to part the veil, discover the secret behind everything, and look on the face of the unknowable.- Factol's Manifesto
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Huelander
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Cutter
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Ariella,Apr 21 2017
02:33 PM
The moment planescape is considered death takes on a very different meaning for different races.

I take it when you said it was meaningless moments before declaring it has a different meaning, you were simply making an exagerated jest. Because I wouldn't want to risk, for instance, this:http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Immolith

It's true that death is not regarded as something final by most Outsiders. However the Blood War alone already argues that death has its place in their lives as well. For why else try to kill oneanother?

Outsiders are made of soulstuff. We can imagine that if they die too often, they might lose bits and bobs of that soulstuff somewhere in the process of dying and returning. Potentially losing a little or alot of what they are, every time. Say that one got it particullarly bad and loses its memories, then what the creature used to be has effectively died, hasn't it? Because having no body/soul duality implies even their memories could be their flesh. An Outsider can die in ways different than a mortal. The ones that experiment most with the possiblities of that topic would be either the Lowerplanes(in context to the Blood War), ambitious Mages, or the Dustmen and Doomguard.

For many Outsiders, the very concept of 'doubt' may already be wounding. Especially to the alignment-based ones. Doubting one's own nature makes an Outsider's nature vulnerable to being changed, and this would also be kind of like dying a different kind of death. Or at least their equivilant of being maimed. Banishment/Imprisonment, demotion, suffering, amnesia. One does not speak about a loss of life, but a loss of oneself. Perhaps it implies things 'worse' than death. So Outsiders definately shouldn't be treating it lightly. It doesn't help that they live forever, either. Locking up a mind for ten thousand years could probably drive one mad, resulting in more loss of self. When a mortal is struck with a form of suffering, it is garuanteed to be at least as temporary as their lives (exceptions exist, of course). Not so much for Outsiders.

Unless they're from Elysium. Then dying is probably like taking another god damn vacation or some shit.

Either way, given the above. It should be no surprise then, that Outsiders tend to adopt emotions and assertions that are rather extreme to a mortal observer. A mortal having foul thoughts won't inexorably change what a mortal is. But for Outsiders, it just might. Their values and conditions of existing have an extreme and perhaps even fragile default by which they operate. This has every Outsider heavily guard themselves (and excel at guarding themselves) from such influences, it would be as natural to them as breathing is to a mortal.

Gods/Powers, the greatest of Outsiders, tend to be the most intense in this regard. With changes to their state of being having the capacity for causing lasting effects to the Multiverse in some fashion. Especially in places where they hold dominion (prime example: Mystra. . .Sigh).
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Mick64
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Fey who require to be at odds with their court or in the case of shadow fey die under sun light.


I know a lot of players on SCOD say this, but I've never actually seen a source on this claim. From all I've been able to dig up on fey lore (There's not a lot), they die like any other creature.
Scripter.

Login: Electrohydra
I play: Anything. Blue Slaad. Lots of things too.
Countless, ever-changing alts.
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Ariella
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I take it when you said it was meaningless moments before declaring it has a different meaning, you were simply making an exagerated jest. Because I wouldn't want to risk, for instance, this:http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Immolith

It's true that death is not regarded as something final by most Outsiders. However the Blood War alone already argues that death has its place in their lives as well. For why else try to kill oneanother?

As Outsiders are made of soulstuff/ So if we imagine that if they die too often, they might lose bits and bobs of that soulstuff somewhere in the process of dying and returning. Potentially losing a little or alot of what they are, every time. Say that one got it particullarly bad and loses its memories, then what the creature used to be has effectively died, hasn't it? Because having no body/soul duality implies even their memories could be their flesh. An Outsider can die in ways different than a mortal. The ones that experiment most with the possiblities of that topic would be either the Lowerplanes(in context to the Blood War), ambitious Mages, or the Dustmen and Doomguard.

For many Outsiders, the very concept of 'doubt' may already be wounding. Especially to the alignment-based ones. Doubting one's own nature makes an Outsider's nature vulnerable to being changed, and this would also be kind of like dying a different kind of death. Or at least their equivilant of being maimed. Banishment/Imprisonment, demotion, suffering, amnesia. One does not speak about a loss of life, but a loss of oneself. Perhaps it implies things 'worse' than death. So Outsiders definately shouldn't be treating it lightly. It doesn't help that they live forever, either. Locking up a mind for ten thousand years could probably drive one mad, resulting in more loss of self. When a mortal is struck with a form of suffering, it is garuanteed to be at least as temporary as their lives (exceptions exist, of course). Not so much for Outsiders.

Unless they're from Elysium. Then dying is probably like taking another god damn vacation or some shit.

Either way, given the above. It should be no surprise then, that Outsiders tend to adopt emotions and assertions that are rather extreme to a mortal observer. A mortal having foul thoughts won't inexorably change what a mortal is. But for Outsiders, it just might. Their values and conditions of existing have an extreme and perhaps even fragile default by which they operate. This has every Outsider heavily guard themselves (and excel at guarding themselves) from such influences, it would be as natural to them as breathing is to a mortal.

Gods/Powers, the greatest of Outsiders, tend to be the most intense in this regard. With changes to their state of being having the capacity for causing lasting effects to the Multiverse in some fashion. Especially in places where they hold dominion (prime example: Mystra. . .Sigh).


It was an over exaggeration of the point yes, Ultimately it still remains an inconvenience no matter how immortal you are. My point was mainly that they would not act with the same level of fear and deterrence a mortal would. While i like some of your theories i do feel i have to point out that forgotten realms uses a different approach to fiends then planescape, In several points. Also keep in mind the blood war does indeed take place in the abyss and hell, Which means respective outsiders can and will die for good but also that it is endless. Which to me speaks of the circular nature of the outsiders.

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I know a lot of players on SCOD say this, but I've never actually seen a source on this claim. From all I've been able to dig up on fey lore (There's not a lot), they die like any other creature.


That's because it ultimately depends on the prime, The best sources for fey material is dragon magazine, Candlekeep forum and wizards of the coast website. unfortunately fey didn't really get defined until 4e so you have to dig to find real facts. I don't remember all of the sources i had before the start of my fey plot at the end of 2015, however one that stands out is "Guide to the shadow fey". While nothing to do with planescape it has some pretty solid 2e lore that compares shadow and normal fey.

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From a setting standpoint even outsiders and the like don't want to get banished/whatever because they would lose all the equipment they were carrying. Imagine how much less cocksure your PC would be if all those purples were going to be lost if you got kicked back to fae land/hell/abyss/etc.


While losing my gear would suck OOC, You do have to look at it from an IC perspective. Using Trissa as my example i have spent three years collecting up a large amount of stock, Countless hours of grinding and merchanting. Now three years on a character is a pretty big chunk of my life as far as i am concerned, But if i couldn't die from old age would three years matter?. Would this be something to rage at or fear? or would it simply be a minor hitch by comparison?. Ultimately the value of time is shifted when it becomes infinite, Which makes some tasks trivial.

Quote:
 
define ''meaningless'' better in this istance please?


If you die on a prime typically but not always you are banished for x amount of time, death on a plane that is not your own does not come with the same limit.

EDIT: Alright so i should apologies as i have broken the rules a bit here and derailed this topic, But i am going to have to ask everyone to not follow my example and stick to the OPs topic. That said i love a debate about lore and theory especially in the case of planescape, which really is a mash of lore. So if you guys like we can pick this up on another topic or continue in PM.
Do not hesitate to send me a PM if you:
- Require assistance with a staff or player conflict
- Would like to join the testing team
- Waiting on a staff ruling for longer then a week
- Want to join or start an event for the Harmonium, Transcendent Order, or Free League

Trissa, Sensate Factotum - True Wisdom and knowledge comes from experience.
Beladra d'Phiarlan, Harmonium Namer - I will bleed for my Golden Harmony, Get in our way and so will you.
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Tsidkenu
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Should I return then? :lol:
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Cherry Sapphire
Xhallibysskg
Timezone: Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time, GMT/UTC +10
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Mausman
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Tsidkenu,Apr 22 2017
12:26 PM
Should I return then? :lol:

Do you wish to return? ;) if so, do et!
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Tsidkenu
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Retired my BG main, although my general playstyle has decreased to casual (rather than religious, as before).

Also kinda hard to RP with folks in my timezone slot cuz Sigil usually sits at 5-7 folks when I play so quite often I prefer to whirr up Hearthstone and get my ass handed to me with cards for a few hrs.
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Cherry Sapphire
Xhallibysskg
Timezone: Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time, GMT/UTC +10
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edmaster44
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Dungeon Master
This college assignments is eating my time yo, as well as an Internship that i have stacked on top of that, I'll be back Semi-Religiously when it's over.
Helena Al'Iblis - Merchant, Mother, Wife and Sensate.
Stormbringer - Princess from Melechesh, Scholar of the Planes, Sign of One, One of us!
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Ariella
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Tsidkenu,Apr 22 2017
11:26 AM
Should I return then? :lol:

Yes you should, There is never enough aussies :P.
Do not hesitate to send me a PM if you:
- Require assistance with a staff or player conflict
- Would like to join the testing team
- Waiting on a staff ruling for longer then a week
- Want to join or start an event for the Harmonium, Transcendent Order, or Free League

Trissa, Sensate Factotum - True Wisdom and knowledge comes from experience.
Beladra d'Phiarlan, Harmonium Namer - I will bleed for my Golden Harmony, Get in our way and so will you.
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edmaster44
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Dungeon Master
We're going to be alright.
Helena Al'Iblis - Merchant, Mother, Wife and Sensate.
Stormbringer - Princess from Melechesh, Scholar of the Planes, Sign of One, One of us!
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coyotesage
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Greybeard
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Almost all fantasy settings muck up the concept of death by confirming that there is some kind of after life. I don't know about you, but the primary reason that death concerns me in real life is because I don't know if this is the end or if something comes afterward. In all official D&D settings and most high fantasy settings, the afterlife is just a given - no mystery really. The emphasis is generally on "do you go to the good place or the bad place?" to give death it's uncertainty. Even though I love high fantasy in general, I do wish that more settings would take a more realistic approach on death, as in, people have their beliefs, but no one actually knows.

This isn't a push for permadeath, as I don't think that's a very good idea, unless the player is seeking it to end their character's story. I'm fine with the somewhat above board concept that most characters don't die when they reach 0 hit points and even fairly weak explanations for why they are seen running around later get a pass. Even better, unless it's a big story deal, if people didn't bring it up at all that would be ideal. I'm sure that breaks immersion for a lot of people, but in a game where the vast majority of the play takes place without game master supervision, you need to just let some things slide.

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Lucadia
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I been holding off posting in this thread and really I feel like I should continue to do so as mostively it be an explosive perception how certain things are driving players away and no moves toward keeping them--

---

For the one bit of constructive, as a player, currently events run on the server leave absolutely no passive impact. Stories you participate in just become a flavor of monster of the month, soon forgotten with no evidence it happened.

Battle of Salt. Whats that? Why did it happen? Why is there no petrified remains in the Plane of Salt with some overview to the story that took so long to happen? Wel a few pcs remember it but when you go explain to somebody why its important it matters very little to some other player, as it continues to not have anything do with the current setting now or affect anyone.

Hand full of players that got on tail end of that basicly got some custom plot weapons to deal with the threat and continue to keep them to use for rp use afterwards. Anyone in a faction got rewarded a automatic bump up in promotions. --((personaly it done quite a bit to promote my own characters story in the role of factioneer but!)) that dont apply for anyone else that particpated nor any players or characters that come in afterwards. They look at this server and go "why should I particpate in plots if its not represented as changing a part of the server?

--

I just finished a year long campagin for the fey plot Arelia run. Props for the work. it was fun.
That said, its also another thing that took that long that tried to involve the entire server, but basicly very few cared it was going on and the impact its left afterwards feels watered down.

Hardly anyone knows why it happened, for what purpose or what end result was other then the bazaar getting squashed (as a reason to get the updated area in).
Im nit pick for a moment here that all the rp and donations that went into "rebuilding" the bazaar got far as I know, none of the promised events to make players feel like they was actualy particpating, happened.

Humans are creatures that like satisfiy needs, and recogniztion for doing something rp or oocly goes a long ways toward retention. Either by providing the requesting events or offering a reward.

You no idea how happy I was as a player to get a "rock" from an event that had a small minor custom thing to represent something had happened.

--Anyhow this is just a minor thought bubble of some the things Iv wanted to say to this thread. Perhaps there should be in the suggestions" How can we improve events for you to make them engaging and memorable."
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Graglarthedumb
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"The stupid one. He's stupid, right?"
[ *  * ]
Ah coyotesage I agree with you completely! If by dying I just go to live on Bytopia, if nothing else it seems like an improvement. I have to deal with a few fleeting moments of excessive pain but then everything gets better. Part of life's significance is it's uncertainty.

I don't know how it would be changed but I don't think it has to be. (Thanks entirely to the Planescape setting -or outer planes being expanded upon in the creative way that they were-.) Spreading information to the sort may give the players RP gravity to something that should be considered grave, death.

In Planescape the concepts presented in all the other settings beforehand are questioned (Noticeably by the factions). A Clueless might think for instance that they die and go to their god, that's it. Most gods'll have you believe that life is because of they. The world and all things are but at their whims.

Planescape presents perspective: Gods are not the end all be all; Powerful, yes; Immortal, Questionable. So even if you're a faithful follower, turn petitioner remaining faithful, and then join with your god, is that the end? Why are the gods there? -Belief. Join with a god who loses it's faith from mortals, and you'll cease to be, what happens to you then?

Most -if not all- death pathways follow through to the Planescape setting, all of them become questionable the moment those people enter the setting. Petitioners generally assume said god or way is the way. However there are many things in the Multiverse that suggest otherwise. (Notably -following the god example- Dead gods.)

You should also note Celestials (Maybe all, certainly some) were once mortals turned petitioners, yet in their life they still strive, For what? Have they merely become good itself? Seeing as they can fall that's doubtful. If they've reached their end then how could they possibly have goals?





So what I'm trying to direct your thoughts to is this: How much will the choices your character makes now make a difference on the final end?

Godsmen think ALL the difference, don't learn the proper lesson and you can't advance.

Athar think if you only conceive of the gods as the way and truth you waste any opportunity for the actual truth.

Bleakers think there's nothing anywhere, it just is, presumably at the very end oblivion waits, or it comes around again, or who knows? 'Don't matter anyway so why consider it? There's no goal your life and anything that happens there after is pointless.

So your choices now (even though it's commonly known you go on to live others) have great impact on what becomes of you at the end (at least if the evidence presented and/or the factions beliefs are true).




Almost all factions on one level or another believe in things that bring clueless impression to question. Namely their largest belief (The gods are everything, created everything, know everything, and cannot end, or things similar to that extreme.)

Of course Clueless don't consider these things, that's part of what makes them clueless, there's a big world out there and answers to their questions... They don't ask. When about they do they generally join a faction, thus ceasing to be "Clueless". Even Free Leaguers think somethings going on, they just don't know what or think anyone can/has found out yet.




Coyote has presented a fantastic point here, if nothing else at least for an RP angle. To add to his I say make it more apparent that life's end isn't answered, it's questionable in the Planescape setting.

As well, I think, as this one "in a game where the vast majority of the play takes place without game master supervision, you need to just let some things slide."
Man: Ugh, Excuse me, um, Are you suggesting eating my mother?
Mortician: Yeah... Not raw! Cooked!
...
Man: I really don't think I should..
Mortician: Tell you what, we'll eat her. If you feel a little guilty about it after, we can dig a grave and you can throw up in it.

Oh MP you had me at "It's"
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