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New Crafting/enchanting System; Initial Thoughts
Topic Started: Jun 15 2017, 02:10 AM (1,298 Views)
Mezzy
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Darkrob
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Sinlinara,Jun 15 2017
10:37 AM
I agree.  It does eliminate that.  And from a game-design standpoint, I think that might be a thing to consider.  However, it doesn't really seem reasonable in a high-magic, anything-can-happen setting like Planescape.

I would go as far as to say that it makes less sense for Fighters to somehow be able to make items only they can make.  Why?  What makes Fighters special?  What in their class description would suggest that they would have some special ability that lets them make an item only they know how to make?  Paladins don't even get that treatment: their Holy Avengers can be made by anyone with Craft Magic Arms and Armor, the Holy Aura spell, and a Good Alignment.

From a setting and roleplaying perspective, I don't think it makes much sense.

Why should an elven mage, raised in a tower around books and magic, know how to craft a Battle-Axe or Dwarven Axe better than a fighter or a dwarf? Why would they understand innate weapon balance, proper weighting or any other combat specific traits better than a fighter? While they might understand the 'theory' they likely wouldn't be able to translate it into practice in the same ways.

That's why I think there should be class specific things. You want rogue items? Things that give you bonuses to Hide/MS, pick locks, disable device.... who better understands that than a rogue? You want a musical instrument? A Bard knows best. That's what I'm eluding to when discussing 'class specific' things.
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Sinlinara
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That sounds more like an argument for racial items than class items. At least there are examples of items requiring a creator to be of a certain race.

Class Items sounds silly though; What does a rogue know about making magical items? They don't even have caster levels. And yes, it does sound silly that said elf wizard always pouring over books wouldn't know how to make an actual weapon because they probably never invested any ranks in Craft: Weapon. But when you take ranks in a Craft Skill there is an implied amount of training and experience making such things. Maybe that elf has spent time training under an Elven Blacksmith who has worked the forge for hundreds of years, perfecting the process to the very last detail, refined the technique to an artform, and has very precisely instructed their disciple how to work and shape steel to a masterwork quality. If said elf somehow got by without any training or actual application of the skill... then that says more about the player's roleplaying than anything else.

Honestly, if you want to make it more reasonable you could at least require weapons and armor to be of Masterwork Quality before they can be suitable items for enchantment. That way that dumb dorky elf can't get by just on theory alone. And Exotic Weapons, like Dwarven Waraxes, would require the usual extra bonuses to the DC.
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Darkrob
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Any concept can be rationalized. Any idea can be backed with creative thought as to how it might happen but that doesn't really solve the issue of a complete and absolute monopoly of the entire crafting/enchanting system by a single class.

It just shouldn't be that way. We should have the need to draw in other classes and races so that there is opportunity for them to shine. Things that make fighters perhaps a little more than meat shields. Open the system in such a way that it is impossible for a single class to monopolize the entire system. That's why I'd like to see the crafting/rune side of things expanded to allow non-casters opportunity to shine. Bring back the dedicated crafters and enchanters. Let everyone play a part instead of most people simply giving up and not trying because that mage can do it all.
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Daniela Nokomis- "The Enclave" - Vampiress, The woman in White, Soul Stealer, Merchant
Garen Seph - Fraternity of Order B3

"You may think you have us surrounded, but in reality you have simply put us in a target rich environment."
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Sinlinara
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I think that a lot of the issues you see right now with monopolies is born out by the fact that anyone can make any item with caster levels and a few feats. Heck, even wands can be made by anyone who happens across a scroll containing a spell.

That is silly, and should be changed. In D&D, you need to be able to cast specific spells in order to make magical items. A Sorceror/Wizard can't get away with just being able to rely on their caster levels to make an Amulet of Natural Armor. If they don't have access to Barkskin, they're out of luck.

I think that changing things in that direction would be a better solution to the problem you are describing. Because it sounds to me like what you want isn't D&D, but rather a different game entirely.
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Tomekk
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Sinlinara,Jun 15 2017
06:25 PM
...isn't D&D, but rather a different game entirely.

So, Neverwinter Nights 2? :P
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And in terror they run and hide,
From the shadows of old we rise,
Awakened, from the dark!

Over the ancient ruins we fly,
Where the old kings go to die,
And the new kingdoms rising high,
Awakened, from the dark, dark slumber!"
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Darkrob
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Sinlinara,Jun 15 2017
11:25 AM
I think that changing things in that direction would be a better solution to the problem you are describing. Because it sounds to me like what you want isn't D&D, but rather a different game entirely.

If we wanted to use the default D&D system, we'd already be using it. However, we're not so that's why we're discussing other options. Will they come into practice? Dunno... I'm not part of the official discussions being held about the system. I'm just talking as a player who'd like to see some changes.
Charles Goodman - owner of The Consortium and Chairman of the Syndicate - Indep and Merkhant
Daniela Nokomis- "The Enclave" - Vampiress, The woman in White, Soul Stealer, Merchant
Garen Seph - Fraternity of Order B3

"You may think you have us surrounded, but in reality you have simply put us in a target rich environment."
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Sinlinara
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I would personally prefer a system that is closer towards actual D&D. I don't mind branching away from it in instances where it conflicts with a PW environment, but I think this in particular is one of those times where going towards rules-as-written would actually be a good solution to the problem you are describing. ^_^;;
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Mr_Otyugh
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Do you have any tangible item property ideas that would be crafted via such a system? Because NWN2 does have fairly limited options as it is.
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Darkrob
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Mr_Otyugh,Jun 15 2017
11:37 AM
Do you have any tangible item property ideas that would be crafted via such a system? Because NWN2 does have fairly limited options as it is.

Things like:

Keen
Extra damage due to Piercing/Slashing/Blunt
Damage resistances
Elemental Resistances
Bonuses to some skills
Attack/Damage bonuses to specific alignments/races

I'm sure there are many more that can translate over and many of these are already associated with current materials. These would mostly be for Armour and Weapons as that's what would be focuses on by crafters. I'm at work right now and can't delve into the possible array of most properties atm.

Maybe rogues and Bards would specialize in things connected to their classes. Picks, musical instruments, etc. Tools that help their specific fields of expertise. Maybe crafters who are fighters can extend the bonus of weapons and armor a little higher than a generic crafter. I dunno... the idea is simply that right now, an idea.
Charles Goodman - owner of The Consortium and Chairman of the Syndicate - Indep and Merkhant
Daniela Nokomis- "The Enclave" - Vampiress, The woman in White, Soul Stealer, Merchant
Garen Seph - Fraternity of Order B3

"You may think you have us surrounded, but in reality you have simply put us in a target rich environment."
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Artifice
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My only suggestion towards such a system would be to make it as interesting as possible. Picking up random drops, that appear in dungeons everyone crawls around in every day anyway, in order to craft the same items that everyone else wants, looked about as appealing as buttering toast.

I don't know what your plans are, but please make it have some breadth and depth. A crafting menu isn't fun game play, at least not for me.

:)

That said, I look forward to seeing what you come up with. I'm sure it'll be an excellent development on the server.
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SyntheticRose
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Things rogues make wouldn't be magickal. A rogue would make mundane modifications to things -- softer soles sewn onto their boots, for example, or a cloak with a hood that can be secured when drawn over the head, so as to better shadow the face. Or even just outright crafting better quality thieves' tools.

Of course, thieves' tools are worthless with no locks to pick that can't already be cracked open by 1 rank in the skill and taking a 20. There's no reason to invest in that skill with the server the way it is now. We need more unbashable doors, and locks on both doors and chests with higher DCs.

But this is D&D, and especially in Planescape, magick is flat-out always going to be better than non-magickal solutions to the same problems. All of those things that you can do mundanely are subsumed into your skill ranks. Softer soles aren't a modification that gives you a bonus to Move Silently, rather, the knowledge to do that is something that's part of your Move Silently skill ranks. If you want to actually gain mechanical modifiers to those kinds of things, you need to use magick.

Magickless characters don't last long in Planescape -- they either adopt some sort of magickal proficiency, or they fall by the wayside as little more than hired muscle for the magickal people who matter. This is not a ~bad~ thing for a Planescape server to have. Fighters don't stay fighters -- they become Eldritch Knights.
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MimiFearthegn
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I don't think that adding crafting options for non-casters is necessarily crafting "without magic." Its just crafting with more subtle magic.
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Sinlinara
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Why would a Fighter know how to use any variety of magic, subtle or otherwise? Their class explicitly requires them to train for years to specialize in making the most out of their weapons and armor. They don't have time to sidetrack on the intricacies of magic, and if they do then they're multiclassing. And why would it be on-par with the people who actually focus on magic? I think that, more than anything else, that approach undercuts the magical training that actual casters have.

I think it's silly, but I also understand that it has in the past been server policy to allow non-magical individuals the ability to make constructs despite their lack of Caster Level.



In the interest of being productive, I would suggest that you steal the Eschew Arcanum Class Feature from Golem Masters and make it available as a feat that will qualify non-magical characters to make magical items. The Golem Master class can then provide this feat for free as it normally does at 1st level.

I would also suggest that you focus on the requirements for wondrous items rather than focus on what any given class can and cannot create. In particular, require the crafter to possess class features (bardic performance, turn undead, smite evil, etc.) so that we have some overlap and new classes aren't lacking because they aren't a Barbarian even though they might both share the Rage class feature. I'd also suggest looking towards requiring a certain number of skill ranks as another requirement for making, say, Skeleton Keys.
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Tomekk
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Sinlinara,Jun 16 2017
06:32 AM
Why would a Fighter know how to use any variety of magic, subtle or otherwise? Their class explicitly requires them to train for years to specialize in making the most out of their weapons and armor. They don't have time to sidetrack on the intricacies of magic, and if they do then they're multiclassing. And why would it be on-par with the people who actually focus on magic? I think that, more than anything else, that approach undercuts the magical training that actual casters have.

Every single thing Rob suggested are bonuses tied to physical properties, not magical bonuses like an ever-burning blade or an ethereal platemail. Keen can just be an exquisitely sharpened blade or a lead-lined mace, extra damage can be a well balanced weapon or a weighed blade. Damage resistances can be treating the armor with specific techniques and oils, skill bonuses can be ergonomical design or tinting. Bonuses against specific enemies are again possible to emulate without magic, such a belladona coated weapon dealing increased to lycanthropes.

All of these should normally be the fruits of a life long dedication to a trade, but in D&D they're tied to Intelligence and a single skill (or feat) that a Wizard is simply the best at. I think its silly that someone who doesn't know the first thing about holding a sword or walking around in armor is naturally inclined to be the best at creating and enhancing said items. No one is bypassing the intricacies of magic here, keeping your equipment functional and adapting to situations are part of military life. Besides, as demonstrated before, all those bonuses can realistically be emulated without magic... yet there's no problem when the mage simply creates the best bastard sword in Multiverse with their 70 Craft Weapon check and then fail to even hold it properly. Does that make more sense?

So moving them away would not only allow for specialization by allowing said wizard to focus on magical bonuses (like persistent elemental damage or paralysis) and make other classes more relevant, you'd have way more variety and the classes which have to spend the most money (no buffs, no consumables) can finally earn some without doing that atrocious Everquest-like grind. Plus, it'd make a lick of sense. :P
"From the realms below we ride,
And in terror they run and hide,
From the shadows of old we rise,
Awakened, from the dark!

Over the ancient ruins we fly,
Where the old kings go to die,
And the new kingdoms rising high,
Awakened, from the dark, dark slumber!"
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