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Something I Hadn't Heard Before!
Topic Started: Jun 15 2017, 08:43 PM (1,394 Views)
rapsam2003
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MimiFearthegn,Jun 18 2017
01:26 PM
If you detect the distant wailing of staff at the suggestion of player conflict, its because there's a 95% chance that we're about to receive complaints. Its not that we actually hate player conflict. It would be really nice to be able to have player conflict. But I've only seen it "work out" once without massive drama.

Is it possible that part of that is because the PvP rules are restrictive in such a way as to make it entirely discourage PvP? And then when it actually happens, people get outraged that it even did. Why? Because the rules actively discourage it. If you could point to a rule that said, "Keep conflict as CvC (Character vs. Character)", rather than having to have screenshot proof every time, it'd probably make your jobs easier.

I mean, we're discussing one of the more gritty settings (Planescaple/Sigil), where dying on a dangerous plane or in a back alley in Sigil for running your mouth is a thing! But no one wants to embrace the danger or the possibility that angels who encounter demons around the planes WILL fight them! This isn't some safe space setting, where we all get to be Mary Sues and save the world from the big bad... But that's what it feels like...

Because no one wants to engage in any conflict. As Vehk said, conflict fuels RP and plots. Also, conflict doesn't have to involve combat. This is non-combative conflict, and it got a lot of people interested: Non-combat conflict. OOCly, I know this example stemmed out of a Demon PC who was bothering a Naiad PC. Now, guess what? Everyone loves Kasha the Naiad!
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MimiFearthegn
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I'm not sure what you think is restrictive about "communicate with the other party." Communication is key to any sort of fun prolonged conflict RP. The exact details, timing, and whether you want to do it mechanically or RP is really up to you and the other party's tastes.

And if you want to rehabilitate the idea of conflict, then it really is a matter of conducting conflict in a respectful manner where you (general you) are willing to take what you dish out. Then people can have some happy associations with it instead of bad memories.

. . also, I'd love to have a rule as simple as "keep it IC," but sadly, clarification is always required, which is why you'll see servers with pages upon pages of detailed rules.
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ewe
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Yea I think people are definitely not treated fairly on the Discord, but I've made my own thread on this issue previously. There's also a lot of hypocrisy where the mods will do the same things they would TO people for. It's becoming a less and less tolerant place to hang out as times goes on. Unless you're in the inner circle there's not a lot of point in hanging out there.
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wmw12
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So, usually I make my comments and then leave a discussion alone because beating a dead horse is only really my thing when hubs and I are bickering ((*Coughs*))

However, I will clarify something. Again, I don't mind conflict rp, and if you want to do it right it requires a LOT of communication oocly. Mostly to ensure that no one is getting their feelings hurt. HOWEVER if you are going to start IC drama, which I mean we're all here to RP so IC drama is a given folks, you have got to be prepared for the IC consequences. Getting upset because your character got called on their crap is... well annoying, and not very adult of you. Getting upset because your character broke the law, and you don't want your happy little whatever to go to jail is annoying.

Now! If you want to actually have fun with conflict RP then, BEFORE you start some talk to the players you're going to start it with, tell them what you're willing and not willing to RP. Yes, it kills some of the surprise but for instance, IF you are going to rp that you attacked someone with a rusty pipe, you simply say "hey, Shmerdlap, I want my character to attack yours, I don't want to tell you why or how, I want that to be a surprise. here's how I'd like it to go" and give a loose description with ROOM FOR IMPROVISATION.

This is again, my two cents. Everyone has the ability to RP the way that they want to, but in all seriousness, please act like adults, or at least well mannered children.

And, if you're concerned about things like metagaming or whatever, have a DM sit in on your negotiations for your conflict rp.

I am just really tired, of Del being who she is, or whoever being who they are, and that all of a sudden gets turned into an ooc problem because player A did something stupid on their character and Player B's character reacted as the character would and now no one's playing with anyone and everyone's angry.
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edmaster44
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Your dead horse :D , and i agree with what you say Del Dear!, It's like what we say in NYC, if you start beef, you better be packing dog. I always discuss these beefs OOCLY first, to ensure that -there- is no bad blood between us IC rivals! I remember that Beach Confrontation with Cornelia, Helena and your Squad, that was Fun and the IC tension is cool, i did ask if everything was cool. Cause again, past experiences has taught me sometimes people cannot separate the two.
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wmw12
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I said I only do it when I'm bickering with the hubs!!!!!!!!


:beatdeadhorse:
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edmaster44
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and edited!
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wmw12
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edmaster44,Jun 19 2017
12:46 AM
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Your dead horse :D , and i agree with what you say Del Dear!, It's like what we say in NYC, if you start beef, you better be packing dog. I always discuss these beefs OOCLY first, to ensure that -there- is no bad blood between us IC rivals! I remember that Beach Confrontation with Cornelia, Helena and your Squad, that was Fun and the IC tension is cool, i did ask if everything was cool. Cause again, past experiences has taught me sometimes people cannot separate the two.

Agreed!
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edmaster44
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Yeah, it gets annoying when people ..whined for ..well literally, poking fun at and making fun of a Dragon, then said person cried when the Dragon ate her :P , Been there DM side and PW Host, If you're gonna start IC beef guys, please, prepare for the Consequences ICly too -_-.
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rapsam2003,Jun 18 2017
11:13 PM
OOCly, I know this example stemmed out of a Demon PC who was bothering a Naiad PC. Now, guess what? Everyone loves Kasha the Naiad!

Well I would like to comment on this because I am involved in it. Me and Huelander, who plays Zephon, have RPed together for nearly two decades now.

I think we have a significant level of trust with each other when it comes to our roleplay and nearly every time we play together, our characters either have a strong bond or a strong opposition. Why? Because having strong opinions on something is more interesting than lacking them. I like to make interesting characters and, even if people seem to assume Kasha is ambivalent and cares little about things, it's actually quite the opposite.

I would like to suggest, though, that even though you worded it as a past tense, this isn't something that I feel is over. I doubt that Huelander thinks it's over either. As long as our characters exist, they will have strong opinions about each other. There was an... Exchange just yesterday, for example.

In fact, if I may be so bold, what surprised me most about the particular event that I think you are referring to is that there were so few ramifications for it. It started off rather well. However, I remember commenting to Huelander at the time that I could not believe that the Triad of Law, with their strong player presence, didn't seem to ever do anything with it, or use it as a leverage for any real sort of RP. I was given the impression that player conflict is something that is seen as bad on this server, and I haven't tried anything like that again because several people implied that they saw it in a negative light OOC.

I took my energy elsewhere and tried other things instead, if that makes sense, because I don't really want to do RP that makes other people uncomfortable.
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Mr_Otyugh
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There was actually quite a bit of RP revolving about Kasha-Zephon thing among the triad, but they did rather agree that there was little to go by if she didn't want to testify, pursuing it would've been a massive waste of time for everyone involved with a clear outcome. Reactions were rather varied to even some being prepared to resolve to relatively unlawful methods. But in this particular case it was the more lawful elements whose chosen field of conflict was legal system, it proved to be a dead end until tangible evidences. Though I'm sure it probably didn't get out all that much after first few contacts.

Anyway, that's besides the point! I actually wanted to say that I'm a fan of conflict, but I also understand the general aversion to it. Conflict is one of those things that works really great if both players are being reasonable, and generally pursuit more the story than its outcome, though with the intended outcome as a guideline obviously. I do think it tends to generate a massive amount of story easily, but it's also true that it's one of the biggest sources of drama. Now I could of course get about the whole "Just take it IC and don't get so dramatic!" but that's a near religious chant that predates even SCoD, and I've never particularly noticed it to be quite that effective. I've been trying my best to approach it in other ways instead with a little more defined pointers.
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rapsam2003
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Mr_Otyugh,Jun 18 2017
11:54 PM
but it's also true that it's one of the biggest sources of drama. Now I could of course get about the whole "Just take it IC and don't get so dramatic!" but that's a near religious chant that predates even SCoD, and I've never particularly noticed it to be quite that effective. I've been trying my best to approach it in other ways instead with a little more defined pointers.

It's fairly simple to just close down the matter - UNLESS someone has screenshot proof of harassment OOCly. That's all conflict involving combat should be, man. If someone wants to tattle-tale to the staff, then the answer should always be, "Without proof of harassment OOC, this is considered a legitimate IC PvP event. Enjoy!" If there is proof of OOC harassment, then take action.

But, really, every time someone initiates PvP (even if they follow the rules to the letter), the losing party ends up reporting it, it almost seems like these days.

MimiFearthegn,Jun 18 2017
05:36 PM
I'm not sure what you think is restrictive about "communicate with the other party." Communication is key to any sort of fun prolonged conflict RP. The exact details, timing, and whether you want to do it mechanically or RP is really up to you and the other party's tastes.

Breaking entire flow of RP so folks can send a "Accept PvP?" tell ruins the whole mood. Furthermore, the idea that such a thing is even required means, more often than not, people just avoid it entirely. And people rarely accept the idea that, if PvP is about to happen, they should let it. Why? Because they know, if they sit there and say no, the rule is on their side. Even if they were the instigator, they know all they have to do is say no and it's all good for them.
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Vehk
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Though in many ways SCOD is an amazing RP server, I do prefer the way Realm of Trinity handles CVC engagements; consent is still required, but it is handled in character. If you character is still combative, threatening, after it's been made clear the other character is ready to fight over it, that is consent right there.


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Consent to PvP actions are defined as the following:

In Character: Threats, Rude comments, picking a fight, typing in an aggressive or attacking action (i.e. *John throws Dude’s lute into a fire*).




If the character backs down and ceases hostility, you cannot attack them as there is no consent but they must move on/cease taunting or aggressive behaviour.

What many seem to dislike on this server though is how any CVC rp is instantly derailed by OOC chatter or bickering, it ruins the immersion. Such is best kept in character in my opinion, and if one party feels there was no IC justification it's a matter of sending the log to a DM.
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ewe
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I mean openly mocking people, saying they have mental illness, etc. is as low as it gets in there. Also all the cussing and just general rudeness.
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Mr_Otyugh
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Well, ewe, to be fair, there are two sides to the story. While your side is, and can be, construed as true. It neglects to represent two important aspects. Time and reason. The reason in this case refers to how you represent yourself, people aren't usually proactively seeking out things to act upon, they instead behave in a reaction to what the others say or do. Time in this case is about the evolution of those reactions over a longer span of time, due to the self-presentation.

Obviously I am putting no defense upon public rudeness, but what I am advocating is that we all tend to be a part in forming of how we are treated (exceptions exist, some people are just plain rude). Much in the same way of how people will think of me for saying these words, or what I've said in the past. Some like me for what I say, others do not, and will react either strongly or not upon it. And to reiterate for those of whom may have missed the first portion of the paragraph: I don't defend public rudeness, and I think such needs to be better addressed.
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