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| The Mystery of the Ouija board.; What Science says.... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 28 2008, 05:20 PM (2,631 Views) | |
| Slaytanic | Aug 9 2008, 02:59 AM Post #26 |
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Acolyte
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How, in this undeniably physical world that must and always obey the laws of Newtonian and Quantum physics, do we define what is "real". Simply being in a room in a casual setting and relying on our highly biased and easily influenced primary sense (sight) is hardly absolute proof of anything. Scientific empiricism is the only way by which we can prove something exists. Oxygen, Nitrogen, Helium, you can name any element, physical property, object that we take for granted as "real" has undergone and can undergo a scientific empirical test to verify it at any given time. The effects or conjuring claimed by various Ouija board users, and indeed the money hungry businesses mass producing them, have undergone these empirical tests and have all come out as being as "real" as a flying pot or a walking toothbrush. |
![]() "Sing then the core of dark and absolute oblivion where the soul at last is lost in utter peace.” -D H Lawrence | |
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| Shadow | Aug 9 2008, 04:34 PM Post #27 |
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Acolyte
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"real" will always be different to people because some of us base our theories and/or knowledge on physical evidence as well as experience, belief etc. Some will only accept physical/scientific proof. Some will go on gut feel, personal experience, etc. But how to prove personal experience, history by way of other people's experiences, etc if no scientific evidence is present? We have to look at different viewpoints and the scientific side seems to discard any viewpoints other than science. I know its not the case but it creates a vibe of "scientific domination". In this case for example it seems that thousands of people over many years were imagining things, were hoaxed, were cheated or lie about their experiences and just change their versions of it. Even big groups of people who "experienced" the same thing? I for one can't present a proper debate because I'm neither scientifically nor paranormally gifted. I did do a lot of reading about it though and all I found was many "stories of own experiences" backed up only by witnesses who would deny any scientific explanations. And on the scientific side I got some possible explanations for how people could think a spirit was responding but it was actually this magnetic field combined with that, etc. Too much detail that I don't understand. But nowhere did I read about a scientist who participated in the game them self where "something" actually happened for them to be able to analyze it. I'm thinking we should all participate in a game and post our "experiences/findings" afterwards? I know most people are too scared to play whether they believe in spirits/ghosts/demons or not, but how else do we put some new "oomff" in this topic? |
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| SileX | Aug 10 2008, 01:25 AM Post #28 |
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Elder
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I completely agree with Shadow, well said!
"Real" is seems to be a paradox between how it can be calculated through proven theory or experience through practical experiences. Quantum physics is to broad and debatable that it could actually be the answer to our metaphysical questions. Newton's Law however is not completely understood as far as I know, as there is certain area's in the world that does not compute to the laws of gravity (Only speculation surrounding minerals, and magnetic composites as far as I can remember?). So Newton's Law supplies us with a tool to measure lots of variables, especially motion, thermal dynamics and so forth. So we can establish that there is no means of authenticating whether there is a genuine presense when using the Ouija board. So how is it possible? It could be a manifestation of the mind through a form of Telekinesis maybe? Is it possible that a person could (by will) actually perform telekinesis, in combination with telepathy to maybe pick up the will and thoughts of others, thus spelling the correct combination, or answers to make the people believe that is real? Another thought came to mine when I tried to think of all the possibilities, time and space... What if there exists parralel universes, and we are able to somehow (frequency alteration) pick up messages from another universe in sync with our space time continuem, is it possible that we open up a small "rift" or "wormhole" to some other alternate dimension which allows whatever is on the otherside to come through? As Shadow mentioned, maybe we should form a small "Myth Busters" Team, and prove/disprove it. But then we sit with the issue that we cannot video record such a event, as there is not sufficient prove on video. Could we use an recorder to pick up any EMF in the background? In the end, if you end up playing the ouija board to disprove it, then most probably nothing will happen, so is it just a state of mind, a manifestation of your will? I don't know. |
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| Slaytanic | Aug 10 2008, 03:30 PM Post #29 |
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Acolyte
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Research/testing has indeed been done on the claims of Ouija board users. A simple google search will turn up many. The following either happens: 1. Nothing 2. It is clearly revealed that it is the users that subconsciously move the Ouija board marker. Subject-expectancy effect and the ideomotor effect. There is no physical proof of any "effects" of the Ouija board being anything other than a hoax or one of the two stated above. On the Pen and Teller show, then blind folded Ouija board users and turned the board upside down without telling them. Through video surveillance, the users actually moved the markers themselves, but not knowing that the letters and numbers have been rearranged, ended up spelling out gibberish. I understand your point of view and your possible explanations are indeed possible. Probable? Not likely. And there is no evidence to show otherwise. |
![]() "Sing then the core of dark and absolute oblivion where the soul at last is lost in utter peace.” -D H Lawrence | |
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| Lexi | Aug 10 2008, 11:24 PM Post #30 |
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Mistia Vevay
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SCIENCE VERSUS SEANSE... We all know its history by now, but actually just a certain part of it I realized when finally doing proper "background research". And according to most posts on this thread, not enough to form a topic with enough insight to make it a well balanced learning or reference tool for future readers and members wanting to join the discussion. But before continuing with the topic at hand, a bit of background on the people we live amongst, gaining insight on how they think in order to know how to communicate with them, or at least, those of us who would go to a different level instead of expecting people to come to ours to ensure proper discussions of any kind - posting what the different groups of people covered mostly "believe" with regards to the Ouji Board... People who base their lives on facts will always demand scientific and physical proof for everything, and even if they experience something "paranormal" themselves, they would probably make themselves believe it was either their imagination, a dream, somebody playing a hoax on them, or they would even force themselves to pretend it never happened - anything rather than to have to admit that sometimes "the truth is strange"...Often trying to push their way of thinking on to others by using "harsh words", "sarcasm based on what they believe to be one of their many skills derived from high IQ's, or simply dismissing anything they don't acknowledge on "their level". A small part of them actually having psychic abilities too, on top of being brilliant scientists, business tycoons or people with high ranking in the professional sector, mostly hiding their "talents" to be accepted by the others in this group, a smaller part actually making use of all their skills and "talents", not caring about what other people think... One of them being one of my three mentors - Leonardo Da Vinci. People who haven't had any psychic or paranormal experiences, but are open minded about it based on different reasons, are normally also open minded to science, even if they don't always understand that either, or even scientific jargon, and even dropping subjects such as maths and science before failing it at school. Average intelligence normally, but so what? But hey! A calculator does not lie... *lol* And the same people wouldn't dream of calling friends or relatives that they've known (not to be liars) for years liars, if such friends or relatives speak to them about experiencing something paranormal, not having any proof of whatever they experienced, but being certain about what it was based on the experience itself... People who don't speak about their psychic abilities or paranormal experiences to most people, including most friends and relatives... Nor showing their exceptionally high IQ's and EQ's! Scared of being rejected or branded as freaks in modern society, and especially not telling anyone a century or two ago - scared of being burnt to death or something worse before their actual death, which then became their "sanctuary", not something feared like most humans do... Yup, both groups mentioned above included! These are people who don't need Ouija Boards to conjure up spirits, and seeing ghosts is part of every day life. Having to hide certain talents is what does disturb them, for example the ability of healing by using energy (not just Reiki), being able to see the future to benefit others and never themselves (an unspoken oath), recalling their past lives without being scared to face them, fulfilling their roles as being the protectors of animals, people who can't protect themselves, plants, and to put it in a nutshell - most of what lives on earth... Not becoming heartless competitors driven by greed or ego, wanting to see facts before making decisions regarding themselves, BUT at the same time twisting facts to step over others, competing in the same modern world... Helping even those people without them ever knowing, not needing physical proof for who they know they are, and what they are capable of, and being "big" enough to go through life without craving recognition for what they do, unlike most modern corporate junkies who demand recognition for what others do... People who base their lives and all of their beliefs on their religion, not just people belonging to sects, and some of them follow blindly, too scared to have questions, never mind the guts to ask them... Some of these people form part of the other groups too, often only going to church because it's what "upstanding" citizens do, and of course, to be seen as "good people", especially in their own eyes after each large donation made to their church... And the scary part is that they are so good at faking most of their "lives", just to keep up with the modern "Jones family" in their double story cluster next door, forgetting who they once were in the process, so much so that the real religious people in this group normally seek them out as being "religious" and "good" enough to become their best and closest friends - having Sunday lunch together after church on most Sundays... And for some reason the real religious people in church who are poor, never get invited to such lunches after church, unless it's a big lunch as part of a "charity event" organized by the church... Ironic... People who come into this word with different mental or physical, and even emotional disabilities. Dependant on different people from the groups mentioned above. Sometimes having no choice but to accept who and what life gives them to lean on, as they can't look after themselves. Modern technology being able to improve more of these people's lives every day, but mostly still not enough to be independent in life yet. And I have to wonder, what would mean more to me if I fell into this group - a wheelchair that can move by me simply blowing into a little pipe connected to the motor, or a real person with a heart to acknowledge me as a person, unlike most, enough to clean my catheter before it starts leaking every day, and ensuring that I am always neat and fresh - to give me the one thing everybody deserves - my dignity... And the other groups that exist either fit in to "go with the flow" in the area where they live, or they are social outcasts because of different reasons, communication being something most of them avoid as a rule...Now, my next post about the "Ouji board" - some of it based on fact perhaps? Because of the actual experience of a "previously" hard core and well known as well as respected scientist that found something he was trying to prove does not exist: First Group vs Ouiji "There is no doubt that it works, that is why so many scientists and psychologists have theories on how it works (can we say ideomotor?). The only question is where the messages come from. That is where the debate comes in. Most scientists and psychologists claim that it isn't anything supernatural, but that it just creates "a direct connection" with the subconscious and that is where the messages are coming from. Most of our subjects simply present no reaction, very few, whom I believe to be strong believers, managing to conjure up something from their subconscious mind, never able to get the answer to the question in my mind." "I am still in shock following our experience at the Baberton military base in Southern Africa. After two weeks I at least found the courage to think about the testing incident enough to put most of it in writing for processing. Three tests done with different groups of different sizes, using the same method for all. I form the question in my mind only, the selected group of soldiers perform the required motions with only one finger allowed on the board and all being completely blindfolded. First group four men, second group six older men and the third group a mixture of cultures and ages ten men. Di and William recording while a young lady takes notes. The question in my head always the same, just some of the words different: "Can anybody who has crossed the line between the living and the dead hear me? If so please present yourself to us for a friendly chat?" Everybody on the team completely relaxed in the first two sessions, me included and having done the same test more than thirty times before with different groups in different countries. But the third test became our worst nightmare, even the others who didn't nearly die. The marks are still clearly visible on my neck where he gripped me against the wall, and I seem to be the only one not noticing the fading. Right now I give a fuck about the difference between red and pink actually! We never got a name, only a response after I formed the question in my mind for probably the sixth or seventh time. I try to keep track of how many times I form my question during tests, and my average number is ten times with a two to five minute break, then another ten times, following the same procedure until fifty times asked. Always just to make sure even if we all know, or thought we knew for the last two years for a fact, the occasional subconscious responses discarded on the fact that the question in my mind has never been answered nor heard. I didn't see anything or anybody, not even a shape or outline, neither did anybody else in the room. All I can say for sure is that it felt like one big hand around my throat, the very soft voice telling me to leave dead people alone. Just like that: "Leave dead people alone". I don't know if it wanted to scare or actually kill me. After I passed out I woke up just four hours later, in hospital. A older soldier with higher ranking, I don't know his actual rank and only got a name to thank him, guy named Thomas, tried to pull me away from the wall, feeling for something around my neck because of me clutching, but didn't feel anything himself. Apparently he eventually through his whole body at me and it worked - nobody knows how long I was up against the wall, and even the group started to run after the initial shock. I have nothing besides physical and mental scars as proof, besides 13 witnesses in the room with me. They stopped recording! Apparently someone was called in to banish whatever or who ever I called to attack me instead of sticking to the actual Quiji board game rules. A elderly lady who was in town to visit by chance only, eighty-two years old. And she says it was a young man and he's gone. Only that and with a attitude of blaming our testing and me in particular for what happened. My sarcasm is based on my inability to accept what I experienced in that room. And I know for certain that I shall never forget, although I choose not to believe in psychic theories still. Only difference now is that I do it because I am scared that it might come back for me. A middle aged man pissing his pants, and not ashamed to admit it. Last entry. New project back home to start in a month or so. - a direct quote from the journal of a research scientist named Scott Stevenson Second Group vs Ouiji I found many "stories" based on accounts experienced by other people in books and on the internet. I am posting the one I found most interesting: On 8 July 1913 Pearl Curran, a St Louis homemaker, was persuaded by her friend Emily Hutchinson to try the Ouija board. She did so and the name "Patience Worth" came through. This turned out to be the beginning of an avalanche of information over a period of five years. Mrs Curran produced 2 500 poems, short stories and plays, and six full-length novels, all allegedly authored by "Patience Worth", who claimed to be a seventeenth-century Englishwoman. - browsed the internet and found a few articles containing the same story, as well as a book written about it. - No personal experience or physical evidence though, but while doing research, I got the impression of more "believers" out there than "non believers", even without hard evidence for back up. Fourth Group In a Costa Rican daily, "EXTRA", written more for the less educated, today, there was a full color center spread with a giant drawing of a drooling red monster, supposedly the Devil, to announce that the Ouija board is a "gateway to Hell". It says that Parker Brothers, who manufacture the game in the US are trying to cover up the occult nature of the device. At the end of the article is a section "Recommendations from the Church". It says that one must never let a Ouija board in your home. If you have used one confess this to your priest. Promise God never to recur to superstition or the occult! - the article was obviously written from a religious point of view. Third Group No comments from psychic people, but an interesting article in "The Element Encyclopedia of the Psychic World", along with instructions on how to create your own Ouji board and how to use it. No information from any disabled people or social outcasts. Interesting bit of "useless information" to end off with, and ironic enough to mention. Firstly, the Ouiji board was never invented by the Parker brothers, like a lot of people seem to believe, and there are records about it dating back to the 1800's. The Parker brothers simply created a modernized "board game" and made a lot of money from someone else's invention in 1966. Since doing so they have been criticized by the scientific circle for selling something that is a "fraudulent game" because of it not being possible to do what the "game" is meant to do. Here comes the ironic bit - recently, an updated version of the Quiji board game hit the stores - USA first. A "Glow in the dark Quiji board" DESIGNED BY SCIENTISTS... I actually agree that all of us should sucker some people we know into actually doing the "Ouiji thing" at least once. It doesn't matter what the different outcomes are, and who believes what once we post our "personal experiences"! It would at the very least give a new or different "vibe" to the topic under discussion, and hopefully lead to different aspects surrounding the Quiji board, besides the normal paranormal vs scientific arguments based on other people's findings on both sides none-the-less until now... I'm still sh*t scared to do it, but what the heck! I'll ask my granny something just to be safe... *nervous smile* Edited by Lexi, Aug 11 2008, 08:26 AM.
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![]() We must have sympathy for the loser. We must help the poor. But let us also cheer For the doer, the achiever. - Vince Lombardi - | |
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| Slaytanic | Aug 11 2008, 01:47 PM Post #31 |
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Acolyte
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I am skimming through your post and will reply to a few points you make, not in any order though: There will always be more "believers" than "non believers" out there simply because that which people do not truly understand, they attribute the simplest and most common available answers as long as it is biased to their own views. Science is exempt from being biased, hence the term "empirical". 9 in every 10 people thought rain was some sort of "godly" action and thought a sort of "rain god" was responsible back in the cavemen days. Simply because they did not understand the science behind it. Now take that example and magnify it exponentially and it can be applied to belief in any "god", "ghosts", "demons" or and otherwise. Something people refuse to understand is that I, and indeed the rationalist thinker in specific, am not calling anyone LIARS. Human beings are NOT exempt from mistakes, making false yet irrational claims. If my mother of 45 years tells me she is CONVINCED she has seen something move in the corner of her eye, am I to call my self "close minded" for offering another more logical explanation than the "It might have been an apparition". I am not calling anyone liars and your entire argument that if a family member or friend tells you something therefore it HAS to be true just because they are otherwise trustworthy is an extremely weak argument from a practical point of view and a philosophical. Sorry to say. I have come across many pseudo-scientists who support such absurdities and irrational claims, but upon further research they are but a handful and not amongst the higher ranked thought-machines such as the Dawkins, Goulds, Hitchens or Hawkings who work within the worlds leading universities and teams. And that is the beauty of things. EVEN ANY 1 SCIENTIST will be human and they are as such easily influenced by mass hysteria, stress, biased etcetera. Only through a controlled, empirical experiment and observation can any claim be proved valid. Not by any one man, scientist or vagabond clawing around. It has to be, and has been, tested with the above mentioned criteria, and the outcome: Negative. I can reply to every point you have posted but in all honesty your entire argument is crumbling from flaws in thought and reason. The mere fact that you put a negative "smiley" face next to the scientific reasons and used the word "open minded" for the other reasons thus implying the opposite for the former, shows and proves your natural predisposition in this argument. I am been in the same room when apparent "supernatural" things have taken place. Not Ouija boards but things far more scary to a child. If anything, I am extremely open minded about the issue, yet found the simpletons path of illogical and unscientific non-reasoning shameful and unintelligent, which is why I support the scientific and realistic side of this argument. |
![]() "Sing then the core of dark and absolute oblivion where the soul at last is lost in utter peace.” -D H Lawrence | |
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| Lexi | Aug 11 2008, 03:37 PM Post #32 |
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Mistia Vevay
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Please read through my post again? I'm not even trying to form any sort of argument, actually trying to move away from it for a change! Posted different viewpoints that different groups of people would most probably use (not a given, but at least something different then always debating and trying to make everything NOT exist instead of looking and discussing different aspects relating to each. How about using science to try and prove that SOMETHING with paranormal/psychic origin DOES exist and IS possible? I don't have a clue of science, but I try to use it much more these days, sometimes in a positive form, and sometimes in a less positive form, but never trying to discredit it. Not fighting, but trying to make a "science" dude understand my "completely unexplained" way of thinking! |
![]() We must have sympathy for the loser. We must help the poor. But let us also cheer For the doer, the achiever. - Vince Lombardi - | |
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| Slaytanic | Aug 11 2008, 03:56 PM Post #33 |
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Acolyte
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"How about using science to try and prove that SOMETHING with paranormal/psychic origin DOES exist and IS possible?" The basic premise for such a thing defies the bounds of logic and rationality, and thus strives in a direction entirely different from that of science. Some have tried, and have found that the only way forward in that direction is to use pseudo-scientific claims borrowed from unreliable sources. The "Scientific Explanations on Paranormal Phenomenon" is based on proving that what the observer sees is caused by a handful of rational, scientifically viable and logical factors that all work within the system of physics and chemistry. Not discounting what they saw, but merely offering that what they saw was indeed CAUSED by nothing supernatural and paranormal, but natural and normal. And in order to do that, discrediting the supernatural and paranormal claims are necessary to further the perception of logic and rationality that is needed in explaining these various cases. |
![]() "Sing then the core of dark and absolute oblivion where the soul at last is lost in utter peace.” -D H Lawrence | |
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| Lexi | Aug 11 2008, 05:54 PM Post #34 |
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Mistia Vevay
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Hey! Say "Well done Lexi"! I actually understood your post without needing my Oxord for probably the first time ever! AND, the way you explain it, I fully understand, and respect your reasons given. But, I still wish all the scientists could be like you. Because the majority don't represent their findings without coming across as "ugly" people. And I think you should follow my favorite quote. "Pretend you're a scientist, but rather don't be one." *smile* |
![]() We must have sympathy for the loser. We must help the poor. But let us also cheer For the doer, the achiever. - Vince Lombardi - | |
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| Proxima | Aug 12 2008, 04:09 AM Post #35 |
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Administrator
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Hi Guys I have read through this thread and while doing so checked up on any possible new evidence or anything new relating to the thread. None found. Only arguments based on the same old theories and opinions. We are locking all threads for a month if no new or valuable posts are present. After a month you will still be able to find all of them under "archives". This thread will be archived to give other live threads the chance of gaining more valuable meaning. |
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"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science." Albert Einstein | |
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10:24 PM Jul 11
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People who base their lives on facts will always demand scientific and physical proof for everything, and even if they experience something "paranormal" themselves, they would probably make themselves believe it was either their imagination, a dream, somebody playing a hoax on them, or they would even force themselves to pretend it never happened - anything rather than to have to admit that sometimes "the truth is strange"...
People who haven't had any psychic or paranormal experiences, but are open minded about it based on different reasons, are normally also open minded to science, even if they don't always understand that either, or even scientific jargon, and even dropping subjects such as maths and science before failing it at school. Average intelligence normally, but so what? But hey! A calculator does not lie... *lol* And the same people wouldn't dream of calling friends or relatives that they've known (not to be liars) for years liars, if such friends or relatives speak to them about experiencing something paranormal, not having any proof of whatever they experienced, but being certain about what it was based on the experience itself...
People who don't speak about their psychic abilities or paranormal experiences to most people, including most friends and relatives... Nor showing their exceptionally high IQ's and EQ's! Scared of being rejected or branded as freaks in modern society, and especially not telling anyone a century or two ago - scared of being burnt to death or something worse before their actual death, which then became their "sanctuary", not something feared like most humans do... Yup, both groups mentioned above included! These are people who don't need Ouija Boards to conjure up spirits, and seeing ghosts is part of every day life. Having to hide certain talents is what does disturb them, for example the ability of healing by using energy (not just Reiki), being able to see the future to benefit others and never themselves (an unspoken oath), recalling their past lives without being scared to face them, fulfilling their roles as being the protectors of animals, people who can't protect themselves, plants, and to put it in a nutshell - most of what lives on earth... Not becoming heartless competitors driven by greed or ego, wanting to see facts before making decisions regarding themselves, BUT at the same time twisting facts to step over others, competing in the same modern world... Helping even those people without them ever knowing, not needing physical proof for who they know they are, and what they are capable of, and being "big" enough to go through life without craving recognition for what they do, unlike most modern corporate junkies who demand recognition for what others do...
People who base their lives and all of their beliefs on their religion, not just people belonging to sects, and some of them follow blindly, too scared to have questions, never mind the guts to ask them... Some of these people form part of the other groups too, often only going to church because it's what "upstanding" citizens do, and of course, to be seen as "good people", especially in their own eyes after each large donation made to their church... And the scary part is that they are so good at faking most of their "lives", just to keep up with the modern "Jones family" in their double story cluster next door, forgetting who they once were in the process, so much so that the real religious people in this group normally seek them out as being "religious" and "good" enough to become their best and closest friends - having Sunday lunch together after church on most Sundays... And for some reason the real religious people in church who are poor, never get invited to such lunches after church, unless it's a big lunch as part of a "charity event" organized by the church... Ironic...
People who come into this word with different mental or physical, and even emotional disabilities. Dependant on different people from the groups mentioned above. Sometimes having no choice but to accept who and what life gives them to lean on, as they can't look after themselves. Modern technology being able to improve more of these people's lives every day, but mostly still not enough to be independent in life yet. And I have to wonder, what would mean more to me if I fell into this group - a wheelchair that can move by me simply blowing into a little pipe connected to the motor, or a real person with a heart to acknowledge me as a person, unlike most, enough to clean my catheter before it starts leaking every day, and ensuring that I am always neat and fresh - to give me the one thing everybody deserves - my dignity...
And the other groups that exist either fit in to "go with the flow" in the area where they live, or they are social outcasts because of different reasons, communication being something most of them avoid as a rule...

10:24 PM Jul 11