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Do the magic rules need amended?
Topic Started: Jan 18 2012, 11:43 AM (341 Views)
Ludwig
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Now that I am starting to look at the higher levels I think there are a lot of spells that will never get used and are frankly rubbish - there are spells from later editions that I think would help the game considerably. I also think that some spells are overpowered and some are too high level for their effect.

Some examples:

Loathe as I am to say it, magic missile is overpowered once you hit 5th level - it has the damage output of approximate to a 12th level caster in the later editions. I think it is better game balanced with 1 missile every 3 levels and only doing d4+1 per missile, maxing out at 5 missiles. 5d4+5 isn't anything to be sneezed at - but its about as high as a level 1 spell should go.

Light - pointless. No low level magic user is going to take it over a spell that will save his life and higher level ones will use continual light. It should replace the Illuminate cantrip - I don't think creating a light source is worthy of a 1st level spell.

Dark Vision - this is a utility spell that really ought to be 2nd level at most. Once again its use is offset by easily obtainable light sources and competition with much more powerful spells.

Water breathing - I think this one being third level hurts the game. If it was 2nd level, you could get enough castings on the party to adventure underwater. As it is, only part of the group would end up being enchanted as it would require 2 mages with the spell to spend all their 3rd level spell slots.

Extension I, II and III - these are the worst spells ever. Intention is good but frankly, because they only affect spells equal or lower than them its easier to memorise two lower level spells and keep the higher level slot free.

Massmorph - sooo not worth being in the game - the circumstances and effect are so specific you would almost never cast it. It requires a small army of 100 men or less, a reason to hide said army and terrain/circumstance where a big forest appearing from nowhere isn't incredibly suspicious. The circumstances this is useful are so rare, it's pointless having the spell in the general grimoire.

Charm plants - this incredibly high level spell allows you to animate shrubberies... NO. And definitely not using a super high level slot.

Lower Water - Pointless, there is no reason to have such a crap effect as a high level slot.

Part Water - even more pointless. There are almost no circumstances where you actively NEED to do this - EVER. Alright, except if you were renacting Moses and the red sea. But apart from that! And especially not using a high level slot.


DISCUSS
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Alex
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I'll be honest, in comparison to all the other classes, Magic Users are very, very powerful. It does mean sometimes we are waiting for Ludwig or Pylon to do the massive damage needed on the various big gribblies we've come across.

Though, as Kenn said, the game isn't meant to be balanced.

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Ludwig
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That's precisely it - I don't want every combat to be 'Ketta and Lenora fight a holding action until Ludwig and Pylon deal with it.' Long term, I can see it making the game less fun for you guys.
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Alex
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It dosen't trouble me too much right now, but...yeah. Could be a problem later at higher levels. There was a slight case of it against the green dragon.

Keta - KIA
Fenix - KIA
Half Dozen Gnolls - KIA


Turn later you guys ended it with fireball, I think.
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DM Dusk
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Yeah, to be honest this is a trend I've noticed too, and I have been considering what to do about it- I just don't want to tear apart what we've already established, at least not all at once.

At the very least I'd like the game to reach a "plateau" of some kind, a large period of downtime where I can take some time for a lull in action to allow for revisions to be made nice and clear.

I do think spell levels need overhauled at least a little, and I'm open to adjusting the default spell lists too (I've been considering actually grabbing a hardcopy of AD&D for reference). Seeing plenty of input and suggestions from you guys would be excellent before I make any actual changes, I don't want to wreck parts of the game.
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Ludwig
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That issue aside, I think the duff spells will lead to very samey spell selections.

There are also perfectly good spells that would be fun to have in the game. Deeppockets is a good 2nd level one - it allows you to turn a robe into a bag of holding for a few hours. Other good ones would be Whispering Wind (long range messaging) or maybe Minor Globe of Invulnerability (keeps out 1st to 3rd level spells and makes villain mages a lot more challenging than simply who casts magic missile first)
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Ludwig
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To be honest Ken, my advice is to copy AD&D's spell list into a word document and then trim out what you DON'T want, then make tweaks on anything needs modified. The spells are better balanced any way then.

One thing to think long and hard about is how your world works with magic in. Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms evolved due to authors noting that this, that and the other would simply be easier and simpler using magic. Lighting, heat, travel, etc... All this can be changed drastically when you introuduce magic.

I actually think you should give major thought as to whether the game would run better with AD&D - a lot of the things you keep tweaking are fixed, it's easy to reference and when it comes down to it - its exactly the same game. You are still rolling d20's and rolling damage.
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Alex
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Jan 18 2012, 12:24 PM
At the very least I'd like the game to reach a "plateau" of some kind, a large period of downtime where I can take some time for a lull in action to allow for revisions to be made nice and clear.

I think a big dod of downtime will be coming after the crystal dragon, mayhaps.

As for spells, well...more variety is always good. I'd like to see some wacky-off the wall stuff, as it seems like at the moment it's stock up on magic missile, fireball and a couple others.

Curious to see what the cleric spells are other than what Fenix has.
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DM Dusk
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Dougal-
Yeah I have considered a switch to straight or almost-straight AD&D, and I've heard this seems to happen fairly often with people who do play around with the old school rulesets end up back there.

I do have ideas about how magic works in my setting, and I have reasons as to why magic items/effects are limited (relatively) in society compared to other D&D settings, and this is explored in my world history which should be revealed at some point during play.

Iain-
Some people tend to limit spells to being non-stackable, in order to promote diversity in spell choice but this can also limit playability (a cleric with only ONE cure light wounds per day? Pro!). What I may do is try and twist around some spell effects, maybe to keep things more interesting.
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Ludwig
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Yeah, there is a reason it lasted as long as it did (10 years!) before the edition change to 3rd. Frankly, all the shift to 3rd did was simplify a lot of things such as the ass-backwards counter-intuitive way Thaco works and getting skill checks to use the same system. Even feats existed in 2nd ed - they were just hidden under a layer of proficiencies, character kits and the like. If you like, I'll convert Ludwig over whilst we play as an example and show you how similar it is and what's improved on - there's a fair few bits and pieces that will make your life easier.
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DM Dusk
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Yeah it would be interesting to see. Just stick to 1st edition, i think 2nd may getting ahead of ourselves :P
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Ludwig
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1st and 2nd are more a formatting thing than anything, the big thing they added was non-weapon proficiencies
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Pylon
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As much as I hate to admit it, I also think Magic Missile is a bit overpowered for a first level spell.

The charm plants spell really confuses me aswell, it sounds as if it belongs as a 2nd level spell not 7th, the only impressive part about it is that the duration is permanent, so I guess a devoted wizard could charm an entire forest for himself. So you could.....what? Make trees eat halflings who fall asleep at their base?
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Alex
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Pylon
Jan 19 2012, 11:32 AM
As much as I hate to admit it, I also think Magic Missile is a bit overpowered for a first level spell.

The charm plants spell really confuses me aswell, it sounds as if it belongs as a 2nd level spell not 7th, the only impressive part about it is that the duration is permanent, so I guess a devoted wizard could charm an entire forest for himself. So you could.....what? Make trees eat halflings who fall asleep at their base?

That's the two only uses I could think of. xD
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Ludwig
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For the most part they can't even do that. All they can do is waddle about and flail at things.

A lot of the 6th level plus spells for digging/moving earth and affecting water can be mimicked with conjure elemental as well. Earth and Water Elementals can easily duplicate the effects.
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