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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 15 2012, 08:45 PM (311 Views) | |
| Ludwig | Oct 23 2012, 02:32 PM Post #16 |
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Prestige Poster Level 3
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Question - in any combat where we rescue an NPC who is defending themselves from being mobbed by baddies, do we get less xp than if we let said baddies murder said NPC and then take them on? I only ask as your xp system seems to penalise daring rescues rather than encourage them. |
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| DM Dusk | Oct 24 2012, 07:12 PM Post #17 |
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Dungeon Master
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I won't always count NPCs for taking up XP, generallly it means NPCs in or attached-to the party. E.G. The party is joining a knight on a quest, he will consume XP. E.G. The party hires some mercenaries, they will consume XP in fights. In your example of a rescue situation, the NPC being rescued will not consume XP. (If they have any reward to offer, likely more as GP treasure = XP) |
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| Ludwig | Oct 28 2012, 03:01 PM Post #18 |
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Prestige Poster Level 3
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This is what I mean - we're penalised for assisting someone in game. It seems daft that on one adventure we go kill a young adult dragon and get X amount of xp, then we go and help a knight slay a mature adult dragon but get less xp for it due to the NPC share, even though it is likely a much tougher fight. In game, we aren't likely to refuse, but out of game, that irks me. As a game mechanic, that sucks. I get that we might advance more slowly if we employ an army of minions to help us as we aren't learning anything by sitting back and letting cannon fodder take hits for us, but I think diverting xp to people we meet and assist isn't encouraging and feels like a penalty for altruistic action. Even the cannon fodder thing doesn't sit well with me, I'm only using it as an extreme example - when have we ever really let NPC's do more than assist with a few bowshots? For the most part we are getting in there, taking the hits and killing the monsters, with minimal assistance from the NPC's who we generally pay for the service. As a contrasting point - a mage can conjure monsters to fight for him which need no xp award and don't penalise him in any way. Is it really justified that a fighter or a thief who pays their hard earned gold to achieve the same effect, has to lose XP for it? Seems a little unjust. Frankly, we as players can get round the whole thing by using magic - I just don't feel that we should try to or be in a position where it is advantageous to do so, which currently it is. |
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| DM Dusk | Oct 30 2012, 11:43 AM Post #19 |
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Dungeon Master
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Alright, on the first point - if you join a knight who has some class levels, he will consume XP. Surely, if you had taken on the same fight against a mature dragon without the help of another character, it would be a tougher fight and should be worth more XP than one with assitance. The alternative to helping people for reduced XP seems to be ignoring it, and gaining no XP for it (presumably doing something else for a separate reward). If the party wishes to play selfishly and in such a meta-gaming fashion as to only go after "optimum XP" quests, this is an option... though really shouldn't be on the list of considerations. The point is taken about a mage summoning monsters, though this is still the use of a different resource rather than gold- to pick a summoning spell over a different spell. It is reasonable that perhaps 0-level men-at-arms etc. hired on should not consume XP, though I would insist that "adventurer"-types (e.g. party retainers) with levels should consume XP (and advance as characters do). |
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| Ludwig | Oct 30 2012, 01:09 PM Post #20 |
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Prestige Poster Level 3
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Well, not really - unless he's Sir Dragonkill McInstadeath - the risk to the rest of us is still the pretty much the same. I really don't see why, after half the party is injured and the other half is fried and needs resurrected, we've expended dozens of magic item charges and spells in killing the beast, we get a huge chunk of our xp diverted off to an NPC that quite often might have hit or been hit with one or two attacks in the course of the combat if it goes quickly, especially if they are low level. That doesn't feel any 'easier' to me. In fact I'd argue that low level NPCs barely impact fights against higher level monsters beyond providing a target for a couple of attacks at best - something a mirror image or summoning spell does without penalty. A level 1 fighter will almost never hit some of the monsters we go up against and will die instantly if they hit him.
Unfortunately, if I pay some money during downtime and create some summoning scrolls, I have then simply used gold to get NPC advantage in a few fights at no expense of spell slots. But a fighter or thief that spends considerably more resources (wages, food, etc) and is limited a maximum number (charisma based for henchmen), has to take an XP penalty as well? As I say, seems unfair. Either summoning and charm spells should affect xp (in which case, I doubt they'll get used much any more) or the xp drain for hirelings needs addressed. I also have another question. Do the followers attracted due to high level get xp shares? Because that means we will be being penalised for using a class feature that we've earned... |
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| Pylon | Oct 30 2012, 01:27 PM Post #21 |
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Secret Police
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I gotta say i'm inclined to agree with Dougal on this one, it seems giving NPCs xp only serves to drain xp from the party. Which would be reasonable if we were abusing the system and having henchmen take all our hits for us, but thus far in the campaign we've always fought our own battles and been at just as much risk as any NPC. For example when we fought the green dragon, Fenix and Keta both charged alongside the gnolls resulting in all of them dying to its breath weapon. When we could easily have used the gnolls in a more disposable fashion. I would say the only exception so far would be the charmed bronze dragon, and indeed it received a share of exp for destroying the cult of the eye. Even then, we all flew in with it, we were all part of the battle. |
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| DM Dusk | Oct 30 2012, 06:13 PM Post #22 |
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I'll repeat what I said above - it is reasonable that low hit-dice or "0-level" additions to the party do not drain XP. This includes generic fighters, henchmen, men-at-arms, low-HD monsters etc. Almost all followers gained at high level are of this type. These also do not count towards a character's limit (from charisma score) - otherwise it would be impossible to recruit units or armies. Retainers i.e. loyal followers who do count towards a characters limit, and have class levels, will consume XP (and gain it, and advance in level). Obviously these only count if they are present in the party. It is generally in your interests that these characters improve in any case, as they will be recurring or even constant. The only point of contention here in my mind is for NPCs attached to the party one way or another. I can accept that one of lower level will be of less help, but what if there are three or four NPCs of 3rd or 4th level, some with spells and abilities - they'd make a difference. Or, say the knight in the previous example is of equal level to the party. What if he is even a higher level than the party? Should there be more rules governing when XP is split and when it is not? |
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| Ludwig | Oct 30 2012, 07:43 PM Post #23 |
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Prestige Poster Level 3
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Define low hit-dice? 1, 2, 3? What about a 1st level retainer as opposed to a henchman? By your rules, if I 'solo' a monster with only the help of a 1st level retainer, I get half the xp I would by doing it on my own? And if Leonard 'solos' the same monster with the help of a 20th level archmage who kills it with one spell, he gets the same amount of xp? Not exactly a balanced system.
I don't want xp split at all. I think its needless book keeping and only serves to penalise us for clever roleplaying and negotiation with allies or for spending our gold on something to make our lives easier. To my mind its like giving an xp share to a magic item or a spell book, because it 'makes a tough fight easier' - my response would be - so what? I gained the item or spells off my own back, why should I take a penalty - and the same applies to NPC retainers I'm paying for with hard-won gold or have won over by promising to do something for them. |
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| DM Dusk | Nov 1 2012, 01:39 PM Post #24 |
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By "low" hit dice, I mean things like goblins, orcs, hobgoblins etc. generally 1HD or lower, though I'd be willing to stretch it to 2HD for things like Gnolls. I'm not sure what your issue with having retainers gain XP is - they are essentially secondary characters (e.g. Anders), so really the party should want them to advance in level. The previous method would become a vast gold sink to get them to any sort of decent level, and that gold will be needed at higher levels if the party wants to consider anything like stronghold building etc. As for your other example, I don't think I'd award any XP at all if I had an NPC one-shot an enemy in that fashion. Doesn't really count as a fight... Extreme examples aside, I do see the point you're making, but there is a limit to the "balance" of any XP system. If you're looking for risk VS reward then arguably any easy fight should award far less XP than a difficult one, which would mean efficient spells that deal with lots of enemies, or using good magic weapons would effectively reduce your XP. I'm not proposing this by any means, Dividing a number by 7 or 8 instead of 5 or 6 is hardly "needless book keeping", the calculation wouldn't exactly get any longer. I can see that from your perspective that NPCs getting XP is "losing out" (though its not really if we're talking specifically about Retainers, see above) for the party, but I've already made it "fairer" than by-the-book methods. The XP system as presented in AD&D is not meant to be geared to incentivise playing to help people, or be "heroic" - that is a choice of the players, and I don't think that on the (rare) occasions when NPCs do join the party that it is particularly penalising to split the XP a little bit further. |
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| Ludwig | Nov 1 2012, 02:39 PM Post #25 |
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I'm not sure if I speak for the rest of the party, but the majority of retainers we have kept long term are SUPPORT characters who mostly provide non-combat related assistance, not front line fighters and I would vastly prefer a sytem other than xp share to level them. Anders is the only one who really springs to mind as one to level up via fighting. The rest of us have had servants, familiars, scribes and cooks, none of which are exactly combat material. Either these guys will never level or we will need to put them in harms way, neither option sounds appealing.
But keeping records of increasing numbers of NPCs IS book keeping. Adding up the xp totals of a character I don't play or particularly portray beyond asking them to do something is book keeping. All of this detracts from the time I get to play the game and do awesome things with my character. If levelling up NPCs takes place during long periods of downtime with no book keeping required during adventuring sessions, I'd vastly prefer it, as its not a chunk of time doing maths and writing down numbers every session.
Then tinker with the gold costs until they work a bit better? Frankly, I'd rather have to make the choice between levelling up retainers by paying for training instead of building a stronghold than losing nearly half my xp in some huge boss fight because a squire, a cook, a scribe and a familiar were on the battlefield. Not to mention paying to resurrect them repeatedly because most of them are one-hit wonders. As far as the stronghold thing goes, Kenneth - I personally don't intend paying for one. Our party has now sacked 3 castles and 2 towers in its illustrious career - why the hell would we pay for one? ![]() |
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| Alex | Nov 2 2012, 06:34 PM Post #26 |
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Derp-Knight Extraordinaire!
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Must say, harking back to something said earlier - "Sir Dragonkill McInstadeath" made me snort juice. That's three times you've managed to make me do that at work, Dougal. Cheers. As for the actual topic...out of the B-Team, Anders is the only one who'd be fighting frontline, really...and, I don't mind xp share going to him. |
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