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Weaponless Combat; Simplified rules
Topic Started: May 22 2012, 05:21 PM (188 Views)
DM Dusk
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Dungeon Master
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Weaponless Combat

AD&D has a full two pages of a weaponless combat system. It is percentile based, and uses Strength, Dexterity, and Armour Class as a base for success/failure chances. These cause a mixture of normal damage (either 25% or 50% of total) and incidental damage. Incidental damage is temporary, recovering at a rate of 1 per round. A character reduced to 0 Hit Points or lower is knocked unconcious.

It is broken into three distinct categories: Pummeling, Grappling, and Overbearing. Loosely, these are-
Pummeling: simple beating with fists/feet/blunt objects
Grappling: unarmed grabs/holds
Overbearing: Charging an opponent to knock-down (later editions use something similar called Bullrushing)

Each cateogry has a base chance of success calculated from your level, strength, dexterity and armour class.
This is then modified for context against your opponent, to give a score required to succeed.
Percentile (d100) dice are rolled, and then more variable modifiers are applied.
This result is compared to a chart, which shows the degree of success and therefore damage dealt and other consequences (e.g. big success causes Stun, big fail allows a counterattack).

In theory, I think this system looks quite good- it is comprehensive in terms of what to apply (difference between size and weight of fighters, if wearing gauntlets, if defender is wearing types of helmet, is wearing magical defences etc. etc.) and it makes all the effects clear.

The downside is, that every time it is used your base chance needs to be recalculated from your opponent's abilities and equipment, and the circumstances of attack. This means that during play, whenever engaging a new enemy with these attack forms, the attacker will need to add this up, and then the defender too assuming he will fight back using these same weaponless techniques. Again, this is fine in theory but I think it will be very slow to apply.

Flow of gameplay and therefore rules is something I usually look for in any rules system, and the most crucial part of this is in combat- as combat is always slower than the rest of gameplay in any event. (See: Aces & Eights for an extreme example of this.)

Therefore, I am setting about using a simpler system based upon AD&D's weaponless combat, but integrating it with the ordinary to-hit attack rolls instead of a percentile-basis. The effects will remain similar (temporary damage that causes unconciousness, stunning, knockdown, counterattacks) but simply using THAC0 VS. Armour Class for chances to score a hit.

Before I lay out the new rules I've put together, are people interested in this? Or should we just try and use the by-the-book if it comes up in play?
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Alex
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Sounds good, afterall you never know when you might have to engage an enemy without a weapon to hand.
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Ludwig
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I'm not really bothered as its such an infrequent circumstance. It also strikes me as potentially silly if you use Thaco Vs AC as you could sucker punch a gigantic monster that doesn't have a super good AC.

Example - Ludwig punches a hill giant, rolls a 19 to hit and knocks it over with one punch, leaving it stunned.

D&D ALWAYS overcomplicates this and ALWAYS overlooks a nifty but seldom used mechanic built into the Constitution stat. Frankly, I can come up with a simpler system with my eyes closed:

Start by ruling that punches do 1d2 damage, kicks and gauntlets do 1d3, modified for strength.

If opponent is equal or less in size than you and you are attempting to knock them out, they have a to make system shock check with a negative modifier equal to the amount of damage you did or fall unconscious.

Maybe throw in an initiative penalty for a knockout blow as the player has to look for the right opening and it will stop every barehand attack being a knockout attempt.

Kicks can only be used to knock out a prone opponent.

THERE. DONE.


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DM Dusk
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The system doesn't use any automatic-knockout attacks, so unless a giant was on very low HP this wouldn't work- unconciousness coming from only hitting 0 HP (or less).

Pummeling deals around D8 incidental damage (that then recovers at 1 per round) and with two Pummeling attacks allowed per round there isn't much for 3+ HD monsters to worry about one-round K.O.

EDIT: Just had another thought, applying a seperate damage score for weaponless attacks VS large monsters in the same way weapons have two scores would work. E.g. Pummeling damage = D8 / D4

Common sense would be applied too- Grappling or Overbearing a hill giant obviously wouldn't work (exception perhaps someone with strength enhanced to match it), so pinning/stunning shouldn't be an issue for normal people fighting large beasts.

Further to this, an opponent who is armed (including natural weapons e.g. claw/bite) make a free attack to "fend off" any unarmed move, with a hit holding off the attacker instead of causing damage. This means large monsters are likely to hit, and also limits how much these attacks will be used in proper melees compared to brawls.

I agree on the issue of overcomplication, but I wouldn't be keen on any system that uses one-hit K.O. as per your System Shock example. Also, most monsters (inc. many NPCs) don't have a Constitution stat as Ability Scores are only needed for them on occasion.
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Ludwig
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LOL - I'm never going to bother using a dagger or staff again if I'm reduced to hand to hand and I can pummel for 2 attacks at d8.

10 round combat vs AC 10 opponent with Thaco of 20:

Pummelling - average of 35 damage - 9 damage for recovery(I'm presuming you don't recover in the round you were hit). Total - 26 damage.

Dagger - average of 12.5 damage.

Staff - average of 17.5 damage

Granted, I might not have killed my opponent, but if he falls over, one assumes that a kill is easy from then on.

Alternatively - why would a goblin ever NOT pummel given the option, then knife an unconscious victim to death?

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DM Dusk
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Ugh, screw it I forgot any system I build myself will be horribly abused.

I'm going to leave it by the book and if anyone feels like it we'll use the percentages and charts.
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Ludwig
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Players will abuse any system, Ken - they want their characters to live and its a very unforgiving game.

I still think system shock is the way to go. For statless monsters a rule of 10 + monster HD for their Con would work. It would mean that a knockout punch would likely work about 1 in 4 times against a goblin, 1 in 10 against anything of middling hit dice and wouldn't work on anything of high hit dice/level. The rule of only man sized or less prevents it being abused against dragons and such.

For tavern brawls it would work ok, with punches and licks doing minor amounts of damage and then either a lucky shot knocking someone out or enough punches landing to take someone down.

Add in attacks of opportunity from armed foes and you're done.
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DM Dusk
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Alright, had another look at this, even in preference to the AD&D 2nd edition stuff we used last time as a place-holder.

Attacking to Incapacitate

Roll to Hit versus Armour Class as normal. A successful hit deals 0 damage plus Strength Bonus. If attacking with gauntlets or a blunt weapon, deal +1 point of damage. The target then makes a system shock check as determined by their Constitution score (table below). If in melee with an armed opponent, they will be able to strike first, even if they lost initiative, as someone striking to incapacitate must hesitate for a well-timed strike. Note this does not apply if attacking during a Surprise round.

Code:
 

Con % Save Fail Means
  1     25%        KO
  2     30%        KO
  3     35%        KO
  4     40%        KO
  5     45%        KO
  6     50%        KO
  7     55%        KO
  8     60%        KO
  9     65%        KO
  10    70%        KO
  11    75%        KO
  12     80%        KO
  13     85%        KO
  14     88%        KO
  15     90%        KO
  16     95%        KO
  17     97%        KO
  18     99%        KO
  19     99%        Stun 1d8
  20     99%        Stun 1d8
  21     99%        Stun 1d6
  22     99%        Stun 1d6
  23     99%        Stun 1d4
  24     99%        Stun 1d4
  25     99%        Stun 1


KO = Knocked Out

Stun 1d# = Stunned for that number of rounds (minutes). Stunned characters have their movement halved, suffer a -2 to-hit penalty when attacking, and a -2 to their AC in melee. If a Stunned character fails a subsequent % Save against an unarmed attack, they are Knocked Out.

Monsters or other NPCs without a Constitution Score are treated as having Con 10 + HD. Count 1d6HP creatures as Con 10, and 1d4 HP creatures as Con 9.

Quick version:
• Armed opponent melees first
• Roll to Hit vs. AC
• Damage = 0 + SB
(+1 for blunt weapons)
• Save vs. KO
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Ludwig
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I like it it - what GENIUS rules designer came up with that? Oh wait, it was me.

I have one suggestion - modify the Con used on the table by the opponents Strength bonus and the blunt weapon type.

e.g. Con 12 human hit by a strength 18 (+2 Str bonus) gnoll with a club trying to knock him out

12 Con - 2 point strength bonus - 1 for blunt weapon = 9 Con and and only a 65% chance of KO.

It means that stronger characters can knock people out more easily and weapons like clubs (maybe give purpose built weapons like saps and blackjacks a bigger bonus) have an actual effect on knockout attempts.
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DM Dusk
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Ludwig
Mar 8 2013, 10:56 AM
I have one suggestion - modify the Con used on the table by the opponents Strength bonus and  the blunt weapon type.

e.g. Con 12 human hit by a strength 18 (+2 Str bonus) gnoll with a club trying to knock him out

12 Con - 2 point strength bonus - 1 for blunt weapon = 9 Con and and only a 65% chance of KO.

It means that stronger characters can knock people out more easily and weapons like clubs (maybe give purpose built weapons like saps and blackjacks a bigger bonus) have an actual effect on knockout attempts.

This modifier seems reasonable, and I do like the idea of "dedicated" non-lethal weapons - I imagine they would be pretty useful to, say, a Thief who doesn't want to become known as a murderer simply to get past some guards!

EDIT: Just had another thought about a Thief's backstab bonus converting into easier KO's instead of a damage multiplier when attempting this too.
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Pylon
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Ludwig
Mar 8 2013, 10:56 AM
I like it it - what GENIUS rules designer came up with that? Oh wait, it was me.

You guys are both horrible rules designers, don't you understand rules are supposed to be convoluted, non-sensical and impossible to apply or understand in any meangingful way.

That table needs at least another six columns, and about four sub tables to refer to.

(This post officially endorsed by Gary Gygax)
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Ludwig
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Quote:
 
Just had another thought about a Thief's backstab bonus converting into easier KO's instead of a damage multiplier when attempting this too.


That's a good idea. Means thieves could be quite effective muggers, which is about right.

I'd also say that wearing a helmet should give the defender a little boost too - and it means there's more a of a point to wearing one as they generally don't affect AC.
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DM Dusk
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I'm considering a variant of the above chart for Grappling, using Strength as the statistic instead of Constitution, and with Pinning instead of KO. Not sure if an initial To-Hit vs. AC roll is appropriate though, or if the above would require so much "tweaking" as to become an entirely different chart. Thoughts?
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Ludwig
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Attacking vs AC keeps it simple. I'd use the strength bonus modifier and the difference in relative sizes as a modifier. Probably a 2 point bonus/penalty for every size category the attacker is bigger/smaller than the defender.

When working out monsters strengths I would use a similar method to Con but add a modifier based on monster size as well.
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DM Dusk
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Grappling or Overbearing

A character must have both hands free to grapple, or be using a specialised weapon. Roll to Hit versus Armour Class as normal. A successful hit deals 0 damage plus Strength Bonus. The target then makes a d% roll to save, as determined by their Strength score (table below). If in melee with an armed opponent, the target will be able to strike first (even if they lost initiative) as someone attempting to grapple or overbear are exposing themselves to attack. Note this does not apply if attacking during a Surprise round.

Code:
 

Str  % Save     Fail Means
 1     25%        Pinned or Floored
 2     30%        Pinned or Floored
 3     35%        Pinned or Floored
 4     40%        Pinned or Floored
 5     45%        Pinned or Floored
 6     50%        Pinned or Floored
 7     55%        Pinned or Floored
 8     60%        Pinned or Floored
 9     65%        Pinned or Floored
 10   70%       Pinned or Floored
 11   75%       Pinned or Floored
 12   80%       Pinned or Floored
 13   85%       Pinned or Floored
 14   88%       Pinned or Floored
 15   90%       Pinned or Floored
 16   95%       Pinned or Floored
 17   97%       Pinned or Floored
 18   99%       Pinned or Floored
 19   99%       Struggle 1d8 or Pushed 1d8
 20   99%       Struggle 1d8 or Pushed 1d8
 21   99%       Struggle 1d6 or Pushed 1d6
 22   99%       Struggle 1d6 or Pushed 1d6
 23   99%       Struggle 1d4 or Pushed 1d4
 24   99%       Struggle 1d4 or Pushed 1d4
 25   99%        Struggle 1 or Pushed 1


Pinned = the character has been locked to the ground or wall and as long as the attacking character continues to pin them, they are considered Helpless, and may take minimal actions.

Struggle 1d# = Struggling characters are caught in a grapple for that number of rounds (minutes). They cannot break from melee, suffer a -2 to-hit penalty when attacking, and a -2 to their AC in melee. If a Struggling character fails a subsequent % Save against a grapple, they are pinned.

Monsters or other NPCs without a Strength Score are treated as having Str 10 + HD(+#). Count 1d6HP creatures as Str 10, and 1d4 HP creatures as Str 9. The size of a creature applies a +/- 2 per difference in size category from the attacker.
E.G. A Fighter grapples an ogre, making his to-hit roll. The ogre counts as Strength 17 (Base 10+ 4HD + 1 + 2 Size) and has a chance to save of 97%.

An attackers Strength bonus to damage counts as a negative to the Strength score. Some weapons used by attackers may apply negative modifiers to Str VS Grappling. When an attacker rolls a Critical Hit, instead of taking additional damage, there is a –20% to the save.
E.G. A Fighter wielding a net, and with a damage bonus of +2, grapples an ogre, making his to-hit roll. The ogre counts as Strength 13 (Base 10 + 4HD + 1 + 2 Size – 2 attacker – 2 weapon) and has a chance to save of 85%.

The above rules are applied for Overbearing as well, with the exception of grappling weapons, replacing a Pinned result with “Floored” and a “Struggle” result with “Pushed”.

Floored = the character is thrown backwards ten feet and knocked to the ground, and will suffer the usual modifiers to attacking and Armour Class.

Pushed 1d#= the character resists/avoids most of the force but is pressed backwards that number of feet.

Quick version
• Armed opponent melees first
• Roll to Hit vs. AC
• Damage = 0 + SB
• Save vs. Pinning / Knock-down
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